10/01/2021
Big Bones, Thick Skin
Episode 1 - Ashlie Atkinson
Powerhouse actress Ashlie Atkinson talks about working with Spike Lee, Craig Zobel, and Morgan Gould, as well as being on Mr Robot, One Dollar, and Rescue Me. We cover fatphobia in casting and costuming, intimacy as a fat actor, having more than one fat actor on the stage at a time, and mentoring younger fat actors.
Substantia Jones/The Adipositivity Project:
https://theadipositivityproject.zenfolio.com/about.html
Morgan Gould:
https://newplayexchange.org/users/37048/morgan-gould
Claire: Hi, welcome to Big Bones Thick Skin. The podcast that talks to marginalized actors, about their experiences in the entertainment industry. I'm your host Claire Alpern. This podcast is near and dear to my heart because I am a plus size actress and I've had to navigate a very specific journey in the acting world.
Here, I'll be holding space and having conversations with other plus size actors, as well as those who identify as trans, Black, Asian American, queer, gender non-conforming, tall, short, old, young, and more, to tell their stories and share their feelings of being miss- or underrepresented in entertainment.
We want it to change. We want to see everyone represented. But we need to talk about it first. And this is the first step in doing so. Welcome to Big Bones Thick Skin.
It's our responsibility to acknowledge that the land where we live and produce is occupied land. Chicago, Illinois is the territory of the Potawatomi, the Kickapoo, the Miami, and the Peoria peoples. We pay our respects to elders both past and present.
Claire: My first guest is - to put it mildly - the shit. She is also the first person I wanted to interview for this podcast. And I still can't believe I got her. She and I met in New York about 15 years ago where she was playing the role of Helen in the off-Broadway show. Pig. The show and the playwright are controversial, understandably, but no one can argue that my guest brought the house down.
It was also the first time I saw a woman of size in a leading role, a powerful leading role, and our guest took such good and kind care of her character that she won a Theater World award for outstanding off-Broadway debut, as well as nominations for both the Lucille Lortel Awards and an Outer Critics Circle award.
Since then, she's continued to make her mark on stage, both on- and off-Broadway, and has also lit up the small screen in Rescue Me, Mr. Robot, all of the Law and Order franchises - girl - 30 Rock, and Boardwalk Empire. In films, she's worked with such little known directors as Spike Lee, Martin Scorsese, and Craig Zobel, just to name a few.
I fucking love this woman, and I'm so thrilled to talk to her here. Please listen to my convo with the incomparable Ashlie Atkinson.
Claire: Thank you so much for agreeing to do this. It really...if I can blow a, blow a little sunshine up your ass right now. Um, I love that. Um, you were one of the ones when I first kind of said to myself, "Okay, this, this is something you're going to do." You were one of the first people I thought of and would be like, oh my God, I hope I get to talk to Ashlie.
It's true. It's true. And can I say why? First of all, again, here, more sunshine. I hope you're. I hope you're having a nice enema. Um, a nice sunshine enema. Is the best kind of enema you like seriously, you're fucking rocking it. And granted, I don't know what's going on in your head. I don't know what's going on in your life,
Ashlie: I'm pretty, I'm pretty. I mean, despite, you know, insurrectionism and all this sort of messed up stuff as a nation, I, myself, as an individual am feeling pretty good about stuff.
Claire: Awesome.
Ashlie: I need a job. Other than that...that's fine.
Claire: Well, I don't, I don't think you're yeah, it's I don't have any concerns that you're not going to get a job when things are working again. Exactly. Why? Because you are so wonderfully, fully yourself in the best possible ways. And, and I mean, that really, it does inspire me cause it's, you know, it's so hard.
It's, it's hard, especially as a you know, whatever we want to call ourselves. I'm trying to reclaim the word fat because I've spent my entire. Okay. Good girl. But I've spent my entire life like shrinking away from that and scared of that word. It's it's just so wonderful. Cause that's you've claimed that, you own it. It hasn't stopped you the way I've let it stop me. And you're so bloody brilliant and talented, and it's just, it's awesome.
Ashlie: That's so sweet. You don't seem, you don't seem stopped. You know what I mean? You seem like you're doing tons of stuff.
Claire: Yeah. But I know that I know the conversations that have been going on in my head for my whole life and so much of it centers around my body and how it looks and how it's, I think, it's seen and how other people have told me it's been seen. So I have bought into it a lot quicker and deeper than I would like. And that's what this is about. It's like kind of be like. Ah, not, not, I'm not going to fight it anymore. I'm going to embrace it. And I want to talk to other people that when I'm not feeling it, I can look to and be like, Jesus Christ.
Claire: Like they're doing it, they're doing it. And they're gorgeous and they're fucking bad-ass and all of that. Okay. I'm going to stop it now. And the reason why, like you popped into my mind is all of those things, but it was also like, I want to know what's going on in her head because you've had a really kick ass.
Ashlie: It's a mess.
Claire: Well, good. Because I mean, whose isn't?
Ashlie: Yeah. It's very messy.
Claire: Good, good. And I want to hear about the mess cause you've had a really great career trajectory from my point of view, you know, I don't see all the inner workings, but man, you've just done so much phenomenal shit. And you're not, and you're still going and, you know, I'm just super, super psyched for you.
Ashlie: I hope I'm still going. It's really hard to know at this point, you know, it's sort of like, I think I'm still going. I don't I guess we'll find out sooner or later. I mean, I am sort of to the point of like, am I going to start taking bartending gigs again? But I don't think that, um, I loved bartending. Let's be honest. Like it scratches an itch in me of socialization, especially in moments like this. I don't know if it's particularly safe to do that. So I'm waiting until it would become like a financial necessity, but I don't think hopefully I'll get something right at the edge of the line. Uh, my friend, Debra Jo Rupp always talks about how she got she played my mom in a couple of things.
Claire: I love her.
Ashlie: She's amazing. I would always talk about how, like, how there was like a fire and she was putting her mother she was, uh, getting her mother assistance in a facility, like all this sort of stuff, you know all of these things the day that, That 70s Show called to tell her that she booked. Yep.
And these stories, it's crazy. And I find myself a little obsessed with these stories and it's probably not, there's a scarcity model there. Right. I'm not sure it's helpful. Right. Hilary Swank got fired from Beverly Hills 90210. I think that was the one she was on or Melrose Place. Was it Melrose Place? I dunno. She got fired from one of those shows, and then I guess she was standing in line to get some medication. This may be apocryphal, but I've read it. So I'm hoping it's true. And why do I hope it's true. Like, I'd love to examine that sometime. Uh, Hilary Swank was in line and had just gotten turned down. Her health insurance had just turned her down to pay for this drug. So the drug was going to be like $800, which is also like such a...yeah, anyway. And her mother called her to let her know that she had been nominated for an Academy Award for Boys Don't Cry.
Claire: You serious?
Ashlie: Yeah. And she was really in a space of like, this is never happening for me again, like she'd gotten fired, you know, like I think that must be, that is not happened to me yet. I'm sure it will. I'm sure. I think it happens all the time and it's not about being a bad person or being a bad actor, it's about just not being right for the thing, you know? I'm sure if I work long enough, that will happen to me probably multiple times, but I just never wanna assume that cause like actors, I really love and who I respect, I have all had stories like that about being fired off of something for this, that, or the other, you know, as a matter of fact, if I get to, you know, 70 and I haven't been fired, I'm going to be like, well, I clearly have just been like too much, too much of a get-along. You know what I mean? Like I need start...
Claire: Need to make waves...
Ashlie: Pushing back on stuff a little more. Yeah.
Claire: You got to get it under your belt. Otherwise you're not a legitimate actor clearly.
Ashlie: Right? Well, I mean, but also, and this ties into sort of what we're talking about today, like there, there was just a series of roles... The industry was in a very different place when I started Claire. And when you and I first met and it's like the things I turned down or like wouldn't audition for are one thing, you know. Like some of those were just like the most fat-phobic things, you know? And but even some of the things I took were not great, you know, and I feel now responsible for having been part of putting those images out into the world, you know, and I do feel responsibility for that.
Claire: Are you able to go into a little more detail about that?
Ashlie: Yeah. I mean, the things that I'll talk first about the things that I turned down or didn't audition, for. There was a character who I knew the show was all gonna be about a weight loss journey for her. And I wasn't really interested in that.
And then there's stuff like, you know, early in my career, there was stuff like being like a face at the door, you know, like just being in my body and my face and being like in a blind date montage where it's like, you know, they open the door and the girl says something and then the door gets shut. And I was supposed to be like fourth or fifth in that montage. And it was like, I was, oh, I opened the door and was just seen, I didn't even have to say anything. And then the door was shut. And I was like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not doing that. They're going to have to find somebody else for that. Um, there was also much more recently within the past five years there was an SNL alum who was, or maybe he was on the show this time, not, I don't know.
Anyway, there was an actor who was doing a pilot and I don't think it went, I'd never heard it. I don't know. There's so much TV. It's hard to know what goes and what doesn't, but like I never heard of this show happening. And there was a whole thing where he got, the character got really drunk and made out with a fat the word was sloppy.
I think using a fat sloppy girl in the bathroom of the bar who had like a hideous full back tattoo. And basically there was a whole thing about how he hooked up with her and then realized that the whole bar knew that he had hooked up with her. And it was. He was not embarrassed about his behavior.
He was about, he was embarrassed about who, the physical appearance of the person he did it with. So I was like, I'm not, I'm not really interested in that.
Claire: Good for you. That's so awesome.
Ashlie: I'm just not, I mean, but, but then there are things that I did, you know, some of them, I realized that we maybe, I don't know, I don't know.
It's hard to know. Right. Like there's part of me, that's like, well, maybe we wouldn't have gotten to here. If we didn't have those, you know, because at least, at least there was a fat girl on television.
Claire: Right, okay. So you mean like industry-wise.
Ashlie: Yes. Yeah.
Like in terms of, I played roles in 2004, 2005, a series of like romantic pairings where like, the relationship was really great or the sex was really great, but they were embarrassed to introduce me to their friends. Right. And that was a really pervasive storyline of...
Claire: RIght. Yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about.
Ashlie: And part of me is like, if that is so pervasive, is that reality or is that something that the industry is perpetuating? Right?
But like I had a hard time even nailing down for fat actresses that had been able to be love interests on television before that.
Claire: Television, movies, anywhere.
Ashlie: Right. Especially younger, like fat women in their twenties and thirties allowed to be love interests for established characters. You know, was like not a thing so much.
Um, there were a couple of exceptions, but I mean, the exception sort of proved the rule, you know? And so I feel a lot of, I mean, I'm grateful to the people who gave me those jobs because I have a career and I get to pick and choose what I do to a certain extent. I get to say no to things because I can live in the hope that something else is going to come along.
Claire: Right.
Ashlie: You know, and I think everybody does jobs that they're not psyched about. Yeah. You're just psyched about getting the job because when you're first starting out, you know, um, but I do I, I also feel like I can't separate some of those things, from the experiences I had around it, I had some great experiences.
I had some people that were entirely lovely, fantastic scene partners. And then I had people that weren't super great, and who themselves were not comfortable with the actual physical reality of me.
Claire: Wow. And is that something that they, how did you know, how did you know that they were not comfortable with that?
Ashlie: Well, I can tell you that for one of them we had to have a fight choreographer come in and rehearse a love scene to like, sort of work out the dynamics of it. There were times when there was a show where I was told that I could not initiate touches or kisses. Because there was a concern that the lead male actor would not respond appropriately.
Claire: Wow.
Ashlie: And there was a real fear, and I appreciate, you know, the, the it's so messed up, but I do understand that all of this was coming out of a space of like trying to protect my character. They were very, there were huge concerns about this girl looking desperate.
Claire: Oh, really? Okay.
Ashlie: And so the idea was that if I was too touchy or got too affectionate, that that would translate to clingy, especially if there was a possibility that that behavior was not going to be reciprocated by the actor I'm supposed to be in a relationship with.
Claire: Let me gather my thoughts here.
Ashlie: Oh. And to add to that, this was not said in front of the actor.
Claire: Oh, it was not.
Ashlie: No.
Claire: Okay. Okay.
Ashlie: This was a conversation. One of many conversations where I was taken aside.
Claire: Oh, so he clearly had talked to them.
Ashlie: I don't know. I don't know. He certainly, he, I will say that he certainly didn't have any opportunity to refute it.
Claire: Yeah.
Ashlie: I don't that said, I don't think, I don't think they were making that up. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know.
Claire: Seems to me though that, like,
Ashlie: I don't know I was young and they didn't really need to explain to me whose decision it was. You know, what I mean. It was just like. They were protecting the character and protecting my work.
Claire: Yeah.
Ashlie: And so that was the conversation that was had.
Claire: I wonder if they also had a conversation with him about like, Hey, listen, this is your job. You are an actor, you're supposed to be in a relationship, therefore, you need to reciprocate because it's, that's the whole point. You're in a relationship.
Ashlie: That's a great question.
Claire: Because that, to me, that would be, that would be who should be pulled aside to be like, Hey, listen, you know, Ashlie's giving you this because that's the relationship and you are not stepping up to it. What...
Ashlie: Well, there's also the added dynamic of, I was straight out of drama school. I had, you know, I had not done much work and he was famous.
Claire: Mm-hmm. So there was that kind of barrier.
Ashlie: Yeah,
Claire: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Ashlie: Yeah. So there's that stuff. And you know, at the time it was all sort of, uh, I was really thrilled and exhilarated to be doing the work. And honestly, at that time, what we were doing felt really groundbreaking and yes, it didn't bear any resemblance to the actual romantic relationship I was in at the time with a conventionally-sized, attractive person. And it was a little confusing to be on several things where I was like, so this is the perception of what my relationship is, but none of this reflects any of my lived experience whatsoever. Um, and there was this strange disconnect in that way.
Claire: Of course. What did you do with that information?
Ashlie: Part of me you know, some things had more leeway than others. There was a character that I went in for and the description was she's frumpy, she's she's you know, in her thirties. You know, I this was for Rescue Me, actually. And I think you can talk about this. The casting notice was sort of like, uh, you know, frumpy, overweight, whatever.
Claire: They're synonymous clearly.
Ashlie: Uh, and you know, they were, they were like but they end up together and I was like, well, I made the executive decision to be like, well, I'm going to look as hot as I possibly can, because I feel like, if fat is the issue that I'm beginning to understand that it is or perceived to be the issue with all these people, and listen, like, I always knew that fat-phobia existed. Like, I, I had been fat for a long time.
Claire: This wasn't your first rodeo with that stuff.
Ashlie: No, I guess, it was interesting to me that I had been dealing with fat-phobia from individuals, not systemic, enshrined, industry-wide, institutionalized, fat-phobia.
Claire: Right. Right. Accepted fatphobia.
Ashlie: Right, right. Uh, so yeah, so, going in, I was like, well, I'm gonna look as hot as I can. You know, like, I'm really excited about this. And I did a, you know, cutting down to here and the whole thing and went in and I ended up doing that show and having a fantastic time on it. I then heard later from a friend of mine, oh man, God love friends.
Claire: Shit. Where's this going?
Ashlie: She said, she knew someone involved with that first episode and with the casting process, she said, yeah, you know, it's funny because I've heard you say that about how you dress really hot, but it actually came down to you and this fat girl that was really hot and they decided to go with the better actor. And they really thought that was like, A Thing. And I was like, great.
Claire: Did you go out and Google this other actor to see like, just how hot she was?
Ashlie: That's the thing is I'm not sure who that actor, I mean, I know lots of really, really good looking fat girls, you know what I mean? Like a lot of them and I was just sort of like, oh, Okay.
Claire: Yeah. What is that?
Ashlie: That's cool. I don't even know.
Claire: Yeah. Is that a compliment? Is that an insult?
Ashlie: I also kind of love that we're all patting ourselves on the back, right? Like I'm like, I changed the version of this character and they're like, no, we actually went with the frumpy girl because she was the better actor.
To have these, these jobs very early, taught me a great deal. And it taught me that not, everyone's going to be your friend. Not everybody's going to get behind your narrative. You find the people on each project that are, and you enlist them and you enroll them. And then it becomes collaborative.
Immediately. My mind went to a costumer, my friend, Eden that I worked on a show called One Dollar with where my character is uh, factory worker, a steelworker. Eden was so great about finding the things for Terry that created a person and not a joke of a person. Right. And she was shopping, you know, She was shopping at discount stores and, um, Costco's and stuff like that, for shirts and jeans and things like that.
But she was like, no, I believe that Terry has a style, and we were able to create this whole character together. You ready? I'm gonna talk more trash.
Claire: PLEASE!
Ashlie: Uh, uh, I did a job where clothes were very cool for everybody. Like really neat clothes. I sent all my sizes and they were like, you know, we need to do a fitting. I was very excited to have booked this job. They're like, we need to do a fitting. Um, and so I sent over my my sizes cause I was a series regular on another show at the time. And I was like, I have all my sizes, like super up-to-date sizes. All of it. And you know, as a series regular on a TV show, you feel a little, because you're working with people every day, right? You develop these relationships so you can kind of be like, Hey, can I get a copy of my sizes so that I can just send it over to this other thing? And they're like, sure. Cause people are lovely in the industry. So I sent over the exact sizes and then they were like, okay, let's do a fitting. And so it was like a Saturday cause I was working on this other show. And so I came in on a Saturday, they came in there on a Saturday and I came in and they had racks of vintage size, like 14, which is like, uh, 8/10. They might've even had as high as a vintage size 18, which is what I was wearing at the time. But it was a vintage size 18.
Claire: So it's a 10.
Ashlie: And I fit none of it. And I tried on a lot of it and then they had ,say, one dress that they had built for me and I tried it on and they were like, okay. Okay. And the designer was like, well, you're going to have to come back. And I was like, okay. But I felt really demoralized about like the 12th thing, 12th, beautiful item you try on.
Claire: And you're just hoping please fit.
Ashlie: Yeah. You start to, to be like, well, I see what they're going for. And I'm not the one that fits into these clothes. And this is my fault.
Claire: Yeah. What's the common denominator here?
Ashlie: Right. Exactly. Uh, these clothes are beautiful. These clothes have existed forever. It's my body that's unwieldy. It's my body that's not doing the thing. So I leave and I'm very low and I go to my neighborhood friends. Uh, I feel really lucky to have lucked into a neighborhood when I met my boyfriend and we moved in together, he was already in a part of south Brooklyn that I love and it was and now it has changed of course, cause that was 11 years ago. And gentrification is so swift. And I will own my own part in that because it was full of artists and people that, people living gig life and people who didn't have a lot of money or trust funds or anything like that, carrying them, people who were making art. And so I'm hanging out with my girlfriends at our local bar and they are pumping me up.
They're furious. First of all, one of them is a costume assistant and she's furious about it. So angry. And then one of my other friends was like, "So what's going to happen when you go back?" And I was like, "Well, they may, just have me try on more stuff or maybe they'll have built me something else." And she said, I love this so much. I'm forever going to be grateful to this friend she said, "Here's what you do: if they make you try on more stuff, I want you to pick the flimsiest, most expensive-looking vintage piece on the rack." And then she said, "And I want you to Hulk out in it."
And I was like, that's genius.
Claire: Just rip it up.
Ashlie: That's brilliant. So I actually ended up being my character. You see my character over the course of, I think three days, but I wear one outfit. And they just changed the jewelry. Yep. Yep.
Claire: How long ago was this?
Ashlie: Not that long. That's all I'll say. Not that long. Anyway I'll say it was in the last five years. How about that?
Claire: Just to interject: how do you compartmentalize that feeling and still do your job when you...
Ashlie: It's hard.
Claire: Yeah.
Ashlie: It's really hard. It's also hard. Well, sometimes you're just like, uh, you find the people you like, and you focus on them. Sometimes you can use it, sometimes if you're feeling frustrated or over it all, depending on what you're doing, that's a useful feeling. Which was certainly something in those roles that I was talking about early on in my career, where I was in romantic entanglements, invariably, I had to get upset. I had to, whatever, you know I've done a lot of a fair amount of crying on film and TV.
Claire: Because it's always a tragic story when you have a fat girl...
Ashlie: I mean, you know. Yeah. Yeah. If you're, I was just about to be like, you know, if you're a day player, you could be jolly, but you know, if you're in more than three episodes, odds are, you're going to cry at some point. You can't have them thinking it's okay to be that way anyway.
No, you just find your friends and you find your, and to be honest, Most of the jobs, the overwhelming amount of jobs that I've done have been really, really lovely. Like fantastic, supportive, and material that I really liked, and that felt meaningful. And also there's this weird thing where I'd say over half of the jobs I've had had nothing to do with my size at all.
Claire: That's impressive. That's really impressive.
Ashlie: Which is great. Well, you know, I mean, like, I, I'm really lucky I've done about, I think 90 films and TV shows since I started in 2004 and then probably I'd say about 20 to 25 plays. Right. And. I mean, there just aren't that many fat girls...nobody's writing that much about fat girls. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like my very first job on Law and Order was not about a fat girl. And then I had two that were, and then Spike Lee cast me in Inside Man, which was not a fat girl role. Blackkklansman was also not - Blackkklansman, Connie Kendrickson was supposed to be in the script, was written as a Better Homes and Gardens, Donna Reed type.
Claire: Really! Damn that ...
Ashlie: She's supposed to be super put together; like crisp, you know?
Claire: Wow. And you got called in for that.
Ashlie: Yeah. And well, I mean, Spike and I had worked together before, so he, and he had called me in for - it's so funny: Spike is so lovely in that he is, he reuses actors. He finds actors. He likes, I've been very lucky to get to know several directors that in that way, like I work with Craig Zobel a fair amount. Uh, who I love, I work with Spike like that. Spike, uh, reuses people. So I went in for a character in, She's Gotta Have It, the TV show and, and my friend Kim, who was in Inside Man with me, who could not, other than us being white, could not be like more different. We are both white, white with boobs. And that's like the only thing we have in common. She ended up booking that, like we both got pinned and then she got that one.
And then Inside, I mean, Blackkklansman cast less than a year later. So, Kim Coleman who casts for Spike is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause we shot we shot Blackkklansman while She's Gotta Have It was in between season one and season two. Cause we had a wrap party and they, and all the She's Gotta Have It folks showed up because they were just about to, I think they were in pre-production at that point.
Claire: Nice.
Ashlie: Yeah. Yeah. Spike is wonderful. And that character had nothing to do with my size. Yeah, she's just a cop.
Claire: I saw that recently. I watched it.
Ashlie: Did you? How'd it hold up?
Claire: It held up so fucking well. I was like...
Ashlie: He's so good.
Claire: He, it was really so good. So incredibly well done. Like, just the level of detail. So yeah, it was so good. It was so good.
Ashlie: He does this thing that I love in really pivotal scenes where he's got very good actors and I know he's probably done this other times that on films that I wasn't in, but the only ones I know are the ones that I was in, which was that when he's got two like, master actors working opposite each other on a phone or whatever, he sets up two sets with two crews and the phone lines are live.
So they're actually both ends are being filmed and both ends are being played. Like, for example, in Inside Man, the conversations between Denzel and Clive Owen where Clive Owen is in the bank vault and Denzel's in the mobile command center with us. Those are all live phone lines. Those are that's two crews using two cameras in two different local sets on the soundstage shooting.
Same thing happens in that beautiful scene in Blackkklansman where JD and Topher are on the phone together. And JD is telling the story about, about I think the kid's name is Biscuit or something like that. Like basically he's telling the story about his, his white, his sort of like Klan persona, in his Klan persona, JD is talking about growing up next door to another child who's Black and about how he then didn't play with that child anymore. And I don't know if it was explicit, but the thing that I always got out of that was that JD's character, Ron Stallworth, is telling a story of his experience from the other side of the story. Right. As the person who did that to him. And so that whole scene is all live phone lines as well. And that's a lot of work, but it's --
Claire: Oh but it makes a huge difference.
Ashlie: Yeah, as JD said, he's a, he's a player's coach. He like really, he really gets down with the actors, you know. And I've been really lucky to work with a lot of players' coaches.
This is the weird thing about having a fat body one of the weird things about having a fat body in this industry, is sometimes people assume everything you're doing is comedic, even when you're not trying to be. Like, there is we, I think a lot of people put a lot of characteristics on a fat body which include ineptitude, which include unintelligence you know, I remember somebody in, in a discussion about Blackkklansman called Connie Kendrickson near illiterate. And I was like, she reads the paper.
Claire: Where did you get that from?
Ashlie: I was like, the first thing she does is hand them articles she clipped from the paper. Like I was like, she's a racist piece of trash, but she's not illiterate. Like, that's interesting that that's what you got, you know? And there was a lot in that film that was where, I mean, there were some things that I was, I was sort of, allowing Connie to be an idiot. I mean, because she is an idiot, but there were certainly things that I was not playing for comedy that I felt were real, terrifying stakes, that I'm not sure everybody else believed were real. You know what I mean? That that I think like when JD tackles me and we're fighting, I felt like those stakes were really high.
And then I turned around when the cops come in and I do the worst thing and accuse him of rape. And and I felt like those were very serious stakes. And I do think that there, I know that there are people out there in the world who thought that was funny, which is insane. It's inconceivable to me. That that is the perception, but I guess.
Claire: Do you hear from people, about that film?
Ashlie: Yeah. I mean, you know, people are really lovely about that film. And what I haven't gotten, which is that what I was afraid was going to happen was like somebody who was a white supremacist being like, "Yeah, girl!" you know, about it, which has not been any of my experience because I don't hang out with garbage.
But but yeah, people that I meet, you know, they're like, oh, you were so funny in that movie, you were hilarious in that movie. And I'm like, well, you can thank Spike and Barry the editor, because that was not my intention. I played that straight as an arrow, you know? And I can see, I can, I can distance myself enough from parts of it to be like, yeah. Okay. So I that's pretty funny, but I certainly couldn't play it funny. Right. You know, that was not anything that could enter what I was trying to do, you know,
Claire: Unless you were directed to do so.
Ashlie: Right. But fat bodies are funny.
Claire: When did you first start feeling like your body was a part of the equation with acting?
Ashlie: Oh, from very young and I don't think it was necessarily about being fat, but just realizing that there was some combination of being fat and being tall and having a very low voice. That like, right off the bat, I started acting at the children's theater where I grew up and it was like right off the bat, there were ways that I was not perceived as a child, or was not able to be perceived as a child, the way kids that were my age were able to be perceived as children, you know, like, there were some very, very classically cute kids who were all small, you know?
And so that was sort of the perception. And I think that part of me was like, well, I always knew I had a deep voice. I always knew that my voice was different. Like from the time I like first day of school, like kindergarten figured that out. Oh yeah. I came home and was like, why do I talk like a boy.
My mom was like, you don't talk like a boy, which is how gender, you know, also a mess. And I was like, no, no, I do all the girls talk like this and I talk like this. And she loves that story. So, you know, so that was very clear. And then it was very clear that there was something they were looking for from children that I was not able to satisfy at 10. But so, yeah, like I don't remember a time when it wasn't something, when to be completely honest, I think for a very long time, all of my visions of being an adult actor that, that I think I know that from, you know, ten to,
God, probably halfway through professional acting schools. So from like ten to twenty-three, I was like, I will lose the weight and then I will get to play the parts I want to play. I will lose the weight and then I can be Lady Macbeth. I will lose the weight, and then I can be, you know, the queen, I can be all of these roles. I can be a fighter. I can be a romantic lead because I'm going to get thin. Yeah. I'm going to get thin and I'm going to fix my teeth and I'm going to be pretty. And then I'm going to get these jobs, you know? And I'm not sure what made me realize at some point when I was in the industry, I was like, oh right.
First of all, even if I lost the weight, those parts are, the weight is not, what's keeping me from getting those parts. It's just not, you know, like I was never interested in being a professionally pretty person. That is also very, very, very hard.
Claire: That requires a lot.
Ashlie: It's a lot, and it's a lot of maintenance and it's a lot of time and it's a lot of sacrifice, and pressure.
And, and I'm not casting aspersions on any of those people. That is not something that interested me. And so I finally had to, I finally realized like, okay, this isn't happening. Right. This is not going to happen. You're not gonna, you're not gonna, you're never going to be a thin, beautiful person in the eyes of the industry. Like, it's just not a thing. So you can get rid of that. And honestly, even with the stories that I've sort of told, I mean, inequities, I don't know that I would want to be. I find those stories far less interesting, and I find that it, to use a phrase my husband loves to say it weeds out the lightweights in a weird way, in terms of, I end up working with people who prioritize the things that I find important.
And a lot of times when I say no, it's not because I wish ill will for a project. It's because I get a whiff that our priorities are not the same, and that maybe that I am going to feel crummy on that set or on that stage, making that project, you know? And uh, so it's a lot more, it's maybe a little less high-minded and a little more self preserving because I do believe that if your - and this sounds a little woo, woo, but it's true. It's a, and I believe this about a lot of things with our body - that if you have enough times where you tell your body that going to set is a bad thing and going on stage is a bad thing, your body is going to internalize that and it's going to make it all bad. Just like if you I coach young actors now. And because our industry's insane. And part of it is that, you don't, if you put a fake thing where real things should go, like, an action or, or if you fake cry instead of like accessing the action, that will make you cry for real, if you put the fake thing there, when the real thing shows up, it sees there's something fake there and it leaves. No one has ever, as far as I know, I certainly, and you know, I can't say no one, I certainly in 16 years of acting have never faked my way into a real moment ever.
Claire: Wow.
Ashlie: I've only been able to stay open and vulnerable and whatever moment comes is what comes. Right. And I think that if I had to do enough work where I felt devalued and really, really crappy all the time that my body would start defending itself from that. And that's not a good place to be. You don't want to be in a place where you can't be vulnerable.
Claire: Right, and then your mind would do the same thing and then it will no longer be something that you love. Yeah. So it doesn't make you feel all the things that you are doing it for.
Ashlie: Yeah. So, so there's, um, there's that.
Claire: What, how did you know that you wanted to act?
Ashlie: Mm, um, I got like that first - I don't know if it's serotonin or dopamine - but I got that first big, I guess it's serotonin. I got that first big serotonin dump in first grade. We were doing one of those plays in your books, you know, like they have like a little play, like our reading books. In first grade, there was a little play about, a little playlet like probably like eight pages about unicorns that were in a race. And there was the good, righteous, lovely unicorn that everybody wanted to play. And then there was like the bad, villain unicorn that got all the good lines.
And I remember being like, I like this one, can I be this one? And they were like, yeah, sure. And I remember we did it in front of parents, like on parents day or whatever, we did it in front of parents. And I said, my first line and they laughed and I was like, "What is this??? GIVE ME THIS!!! Give it to me..."
Yeah. And I was like, oh, I can't get enough of this feeling. You know? And then I remember having that same thing in an acting class where I like cried for the first time, like, you know, did like the thing. And everybody was like, wow. Wow. And I was like, yeah, I did that. Like you're high when you have a good cry after it, you're just like...
Claire: It does something crazy to your body. Crazy chemicals.
Ashlie: It's wild.
Claire: And you went to The Neighborhood Playhouse?
Ashlie: I did. I went to Hendrix College. Well, I went to Barnard for a year and a half, and it was not good. And then,
Claire: Oh, for theatre?
Ashlie: Uh, no, I had decided around like 16, 17, that being an actor was not an ethical choice and that I was going to be a journalist. And then and so I went to school there cause I was going to be a journalist.
And then I got depressed and I didn't know how to layer and it was like, winters were really bad and it was like sort of my first go round with depression, like an actual depression. And so like I stopped going to class for probably a month and I didn't, you know, I just like, couldn't get my shit together, basically.
So, halfway through my sophomore year, they were like, you, we're not kicking you out. You just need to like, go figure this out and then come back. And then I just didn't when I figured it out, I figured out that maybe that wasn't the best place for me. And I ended up going to Hendrix College in Conway, Arkansas, which is where Mary Steenburgen went. It's where Natalie Canerday went. It's like just really, some really great actors came out of that program. And I just, it changed my life. And then they recommended that I go to the Neighborhood Playhouse, and I did.
Claire: And why did the suggest the Neighborhood Playhouse, specifically?
Ashlie: It was the home of the Meisner Technique. You know, it was Sandy Meisner's theater and a guy that I adored and absolutely worshiped, my friend Tad, graduated and went a year before me and went there and was in his first year when I was in my senior year at Hendrix and was like, this is incredible. This is it. Like, this is it. And I remember he told me there was a moment. We had a moment in a scene where there was something going on that was foregrounded. And I had just like gotten in a fight with the character of my friend, Heidi that played my mom and I've gone back and he's my best friend.
And we're sort of like across the table from each other, like a cocktail table, like literally just having this entirely wordless conversation with our faces that we just sort of like came up with and he was like, you remember that feeling, when we always did that thing? And I was like, yeah, he was like, they teach you how to find it and how to keep it.
And I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, he's like, it's like a whole technique centered around that thing, that moment. And keeping that alive from that moment to the next moment, to the next moment, to the next moment, to the next moment, he was like that connection that you and I felt that was not just like a one-off. That's what it should be all the time.
And it just, my, it just, I couldn't, I didn't even apply anywhere else, Claire. That was the only place I applied to go. I was like, this is it. Yeah. And that was sort of where I learned, part of that was like, no, no, no. You're enough. There's work for you, there's work for you. Cynthia Nixon. Oh, who is another amazing female director that I worked with.
I remember we did a show where there was singing it. There were like, there was like a pre-show that we sang and I mean, it was me and a bunch of singers and I'm not really a singer. And it was me and Mario Cantone and Jerry Dixon and Malcolm Gets and Matt McGrath, those four men and me, and then a young LA actor named Francisco Pryor Garat, but he is not in the singing portion.
So it's just the five of us. Like Malcolm Gets isn't even singing. He's just playing the piano. Like it's crazy. I was really nervous about it. Right. And I remember Cynthia - go figure: Cynthia, who is a phenomenal director, by the way, Cynthia said to me, listen, I'm going to tell you what Mary Testa told me. I was like, I'm listening.
Yes. And she said, it's musical theater. There's room for Audra McDonald and there's room for Rex Harrison and there room for Mary Testa. And there is room for me. And there is room for you.
Claire: Who do you, who or what motivates you? Is there anyone or anything that you look to for inspiration, motivation, any of that stuff?
Ashlie: You know, when I was at Hendrix, I came in and I was doing theater, but I wasn't a theater major. And I was still thinking I was gonna write or or be a journalist or something.
And I remember it was like a lightning bolt to the skull the day where I was like, cause all my friends are theater majors and I was like, what you guys are doing? It doesn't seem like work. It seems so fun. You're like making hats while I'm writing a 12-page essay. And this is ridiculous. This feels patently unfair.
And I just remember having a late night conversation, you know, one of millions with my friends and one of them was like, well, you know, I just, I think a life in the service of art is a good life. And I was like, "Yeah dog". And then I changed my major. Yeah. I just went and changed my major. You know, there's that old I'm sure you've heard it.
There's an old Martha Graham quote that that I love so much that begins. There is a vitality, a life force. And, and one of the crucial things in it is that there is a vitality of life force that is translated through you into action. There is a form of self-expression that only you have, and that was why you can never be compared to other modes of expression. And it says, if you die before you are able to express these things, the world will never have them. And it is not your job to judge your output or how it compares or weighs next to other forms of expression. That's not your job. There are other people who make their living judging your expression.
You just keep doing it. And then like, there's an Andy Warhol, who I share a birthday with. Actually Andy Warhol said the same thing, far more succinctly, where it was like make art. And then while people are judging that art just make more art. Like, don't wait to hear what they have to say. Just make more. Yeah, I find that really inspirational.
And then I just think about like how excited I would get every time I saw a fat person on television growing up that was allowed to do something good or cool, you know, and how liberating that was for me. And hoping that to some degree, I can be that for other people.
But then some of it's not weight specific at all. You know, some of it is just, I love doing this. I love doing it. And I can't, it's the only thing I might be good at, you know, and I love doing it and I love the collaboration of it.
Claire: I got a couple more questions for you. One is pertaining specifically to fatphobia and the way fat people are portrayed in entertainment and who we are. What, so now that we know, like now that we're talking about this stuff, and, and it's, and I do believe that it's part of the diversity initiative that is clearly much bigger than this, and clearly ...
Ashlie: 100%.
Claire: But if we're going to tackle all of those things we should definitely add this to the roster. What so now that we know this stuff, what should we do about it? You know, what would you like? What would you tell someone?
Ashlie: I think a lot of it, there's a lot that the industry can do. But there's also a lot that we, as individuals can do, which is normalizing seeing fat bodies.
My friend Substantia does a project called "The Adipositivity Project" which is basically nudes often sort of classically romantically shot, nudes of fat people, lovingly depicted, bulges and rolls. And, you know, and it's amazing how a steady diet, so to speak of consuming more fat images, leads to a greater empathy for all bodies.
It's a sort of and part of it is the sort of thing where there needs to be enough fat people on television. That and not have like the narrowly prescribed fat people, like, the fat working class sitcom character with the very thin wife is, we don't just need four of those and we're done.
I it's the same thing with uh, different mobilities and different levels of of sort of normalizing all of the various wondrous ways that we can be human, you know, like for example, the, there was always when there was I guess what I should call a Black picture, when there was a film in the theaters with with a Black, mostly Black cast, a Black protagonist, the success or failure of that individual picture was held up as indicative of the success or failure of all potential films that Black people could star in and lead and helm. And I think that hopefully we are moving past those modalities, right?
I mean, I feel like, you know, Shrill was on TV and people were like, well, Shrill was great. So we can have fat female protagonists as long as they're Aidy Bryant and then Dietland was on with my friend Joy Nash, which is a fantastic - and then got canceled because they did not want to see their fat protagonist in in sort of trying to overthrow the boundaries of the beauty industry. To throw off the yoke of the beauty industry is not anything that was in an interest to them.
I guess I thought it was fascinating. I thought that show was great. So yeah, like as soon as we are able to tell stories that don't have to be a stand in for everyone's story, that would be great. We need more fat writers. We need more fat directors. My friend Morgan Gould, who is a fantastic director and writer. Absolutely fantastic. She was doing a a workshop or a playwriting. I think she had a fellowship. It was a fellowship at maybe Playwrights (Horizons) . And they were like, what what have you always wanted to see on stage that you've never gotten to see on stage? And she was like two fat women?
And she's right. And so she wrote a play that was basically it was Three Fat Sisters, but one of them is not fat and like realizes like halfway through. She's like, "I think I'm not..."
It's really funny. It's hilarious. And so Nicole Spiezio and I got to play two fat sisters and it was so, so fun. And it was really true. Cause like there was a moment when we looked around the rehearsal room and it was like me and Nicole and Morgan who are all like three fat women. And I was like, I don't remember another time where I've been in a rehearsal space where there were three fat women there. Like, ever.
Claire: You're absolutely right.
Ashlie: You know, so it's that sort of thing. That excites me. And so I think we've got to generate the material and we also have to be reaching down, even if we feel like we're not in a position. Of success. Like people are like, oh, you know, I have been asked like, when will you feel successful?
And some days I'm like, I feel pretty successful, but I know that I will, that success is a trap of a concept, right? Because every level of success you attain, there's another level until you're like, you know, somebody that gets referred to by one name in people's households, so, I have been working hard to try that's, I'm couching it weirdly.
I'm trying to remember and actively reach down to younger people, younger fat people and younger people in the industry. People with less opportunity in the industry. People in marginalized groups in the industry and take an active part and enroll in their careers because I think they have plenty of people telling them they can't do it.
Claire: And they will constantly.
Ashlie: Yeah. I mean, people told me I couldn't, I, a few years ago, I remember I was bartending. Cause it was, I think it was just during a slow period. I also just love bartending. And I remember a girl, my, I was on a Fox show that had just gotten canceled and not aired. And I was feeling the burn of it.
And this girl was like so you only bartend here one night a week. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, well, I'm an actor. And she goes, oh honey.
Claire: No.
Ashlie: And I didn't argue with her. And I was like, right, like. If I use other people's perception of success as a metric, I'm always going to lose. Right.
Claire: Well, you wouldn't be doing it anymore.
Ashlie: No, no, no. So I think it's important to encourage younger people and to actively do the work with them to push their stories forward. Right. Because that's how we're going to get something. I remember Debra Jo Rupp and my friend, Cynthia and I were having dinner one time and I said something about a director that was younger than me.
And they were like, well, sweetie, you want to keep working at some point, they're all going to be younger than me. And I was like, Oh, that's yeah, I guess that's true. Okay. And it was just like a switch flip, you know, and it's like, you've got to start seeking out these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The ones who you have a vested interest in the way that their work can expand a world.
For sure. My friend, Christopher Oscar Peña is one of those people like you know, Morgan is one of those people, Jeremy O. Harris is one of those people, like there's a lot of folks whose work will change the parameters of our industry. And I want to champion them and work with them as much as I can.
And then they helped me. You know what I mean? Right.
Claire: I my friend Jen Bosworth-Ramirez was my first interview for this. And she's an amazing writer and actor and she is from Chicago, but she lives in LA now. And she's writing. She's kind of like focusing on writing, which is amazing. Yeah. Right. And she's just like, I need to clear the path for the people behind us.
Ashlie: Yup. My friend Laura Jacqmin has that philosophy. I did Laura's play at at Long Wharf called January Joiner, which was a weight loss, horror comedy that took place at a fat camp.
Claire: That sounds like my life!
Ashlie: It was wonderful. It was absolutely wonderful.
The more I think about the people. Behind us following behind us, the more I definitely get inspired to be like, okay, now we - no; enough, right? Let's like, yeah, let's change the lens a little bit.
Yeah. And they can and they come with their own friends and their own communities and their own support groups and watching them do things because no one was convincing enough when they told them they couldn't. Is really exhilarating and exciting.
Claire: Have you ever thought of directing?
Ashlie: Oh, I love directing. I have directed. Yup. Yup. I've directed for theater though. And I'm really interested. In directing for TV. I would really like to do that. I I was lucky enough when I did Mr. Robot, which was a really great experience to work with one of the most really, I've been so lucky to work with brilliant directors, but like Sam Esmail is a genius and because I was a series regular, and like I said, you could sometimes ask things when you're a series regular on a show.
I asked, I was like, so can I like the days I don't work? Can I just come in and sit in video village and watch and watch the work happen. And I made that request to one of the producers and then Sam's assistant wrote me back and was like, so I hear you're going to shadow Sam. Um, on Thursday that's probably a good date.
So like I, handful of days I got to go in and just go where Sam went and watch him make his decisions and watch how he and Todd, the DP, were making these choices and how they were. It was, I mean, talk about like an incredible education. Being friends with Craig Zobel has been really great because I when I worked with him on One Dollar, it was our second time working together and I got to stick around a little more and do the same thing, come to set and just be like, so, oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Like, and try and puzzle that stuff out. Which is something - to give credit where credit is due - which is something I never thought about doing until I went to a 92nd street Y event whereJudd Apatow was talking and somebody said, so, you know, you've helped start the careers of so many young actors, who is still going that is the biggest surprise to you. And he's like, well, I'm not going to say it was a surprise. I don't, I don't really feel comfortable. I don't. None of them really surprised me. I think as a matter of fact, I think they should all be working all the time. He's like, but I will tell you that in the moment I remember hiring James Franco and then realizing as the days went on that when James Franco didn't work, he was still coming to set.
Claire: Oh really.
Ashlie: And he was just watching, and he was watching how it works. And I was like, You can do that? And so then I asked and you can, it turns out if you're like, a regular or heavy recurring, like in the people are nice that you're working with. So they'll let you just come in and learn the process a little, it was great.
And yes, that is privilege in and of itself. Like the amount of access that I have is its own form of privilege. So I then try to like turn around and tell everyone, tell everyone I can who want it...
Claire: Jesus. Just think about the amount of money you would have had to spend, like going to film school or something just to learn what what you probably learned.
Ashlie: I probably still should have gone to film school, but you know, like yeah, I'm learning, I'm learning and I am very interested in directing. And I'm a writer, you know, I've written with my writing partner. I've written four plays. I have a couple pilots. I have a couple of film scripts. Yeah, I've got some back pocket things for, if anybody's ever like, Hey, what do you want to do next?
Claire: Is that something? So if you, my next question was going to be what how do you, it sounds like a job interview and I hate that, but seriously, like what, where do you see yourself? Pandemic aside? Let's just assume the pandemic finally leaves us. Where do you see yourself? In five years.
Ashlie: I don't know. I don't know. I could not have --
Claire: Well, then let me rephrase it. What have you not done that you want to do?
Ashlie: I want to I would love to make one of these films. I would love to direct more. I would love to be a drama protagonist. I would love to be a demon or some sort of a leading antagonist. I really enjoyed doing that in Robot, it was so fun playing, playing a bad, but I'd like to be the big, bad, um, I'd also just like a job that I can stretch out in. One of the great things about TV is that you get enough time to really develop someone. I've I've gotten to be really fun, complicated, considered characters in other people's stories. But I'd love to to have the story, I mean, that'd be really cool for it to have nothing to do with my size, it would be also really nice.
Claire: You are amazing. I am really, really, really, really so glad that you did this.
Ashlie: I am too and there's, I mean, there's so much more to talk about it. I hope that we can continue this conversation someday in person. Like, the one thing that I would say, if I can just wrap up one thing, is that this is, it's been, it's very useful to tease out fatness as it pertains to us in the industry.
However, I would be entirely remiss if I wouldn't, if I don't mention that our liberation is tied up in all manner of people's liberation, and that until all different kinds of stories are being shown. Like when I play a white supremacist in Blackkklansman, the centering of Black people in their own stories, I am not doing a service because my liberation is tied up in the liberation of Black people to tell their own stories.
Part of that is centering Black stories and Black narratives and Black people's lived experiences, which because of entrenched white supremacy requires then white people to play white supremacists because whites premises, because those people exist and are real and are a great threat to life and wellbeing.
And to pretend that - I just felt like I needed to explicitly say that to pretend that fatness is separate and different and not entrenched into white supremacy and ableism and the patriarchy and all of these notions. These harmful, harmful aspects of our society is to be disingenuous.
And I think we have to remember that all forms of liberation are intersect and when one rises, we all rise.
Claire: I wanted to leave you with the Martha Graham quote that Ashlie referenced; it's particularly pertinent now. There is a vitality, a life force, a quickening that is translated through you into action. And there is only one of you in all time. This expression is unique, and if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and be lost.
The world will not have it. It is not your business to determine how good it is, not how it compares with other expression. It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly. To keep the channel open. You do not even have to believe in yourself or your work. You have to keep open and aware directly to the urges that motivate you.
Keep the channel open. No artist is pleased. There is no satisfaction, whatever at any time. There is only a quick, divine dissatisfaction, a blessed unrest that keeps us marching and makes us more alive than the others.
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Big Bones Thick Skin. Huge thanks to Ashlie Atkinson for sharing herself with us. Eric Backus for creating the awesome eighties-style music, Meredith Montgomery for their graphic arts skills and creating the artwork, and Amelia Driscoll with Summit Podcasting for their help with editing. Help us out and subscribe for more honest, thought-provoking, and occasionally funny conversations with me and my guests.
And thanks for listening.