Big Bones, Thick Skin
Episode 2 - Hettienne Park
Hettienne Park, all-around badass, talks about working with Bryan Fuller on Hannibal, the late (and glorious) Alan Rickman in Seminar on Broadway, her feelings on Crazy Rich Asians, being a parent-actor, and making sure to have so much more in your life than just acting.
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Hi! Welcome to Big Bones, Thick Skin. The podcast that talks to marginalized actors, about their experiences in the entertainment industry. I'm your host, Claire Alpern. This podcast is near and dear to my heart because I am a plus-size actress and I've had to navigate a very specific journey in the acting world. Here, I'll be holding space and having conversations with other plus-size actors, as well as those who identify as trans, Black, Asian American, queer, gender non-conforming, tall, short, old, young, and more, to tell their stories and share their feelings of being miss-or underrepresented in entertainment.
We want it to change. We want to see everyone represented, but we need to talk about it first. And this is the first step in doing so. Welcome to Big Bones, Thick Skin.
It's our responsibility to acknowledge that the land where we live and produce is occupied land. Chicago, Illinois is the territory of the Potawatomi, the Kickapoo, the Miami, and the Peoria peoples. We pay our respects to elders both past and present.
My guest this episode is an incredible, powerful, bad-ass actress that I was lucky to first meet in an acting class about 20 years ago. And from the moment I first watched her work, I felt like a complete slug compared to her. She was strong, funny, gorgeous, smart, and would not stand for any bullshit. So it was no surprise when I started seeing her name associated with Broadway shows - one with the incomparable Alan Rickman, no less - as well as in movies and TV. Some of her notable roles have been the beloved Beverly Katz in "Hannibal" on NBC, and Tamika Collins in Stephen King's "The Outsider" on HBO. Also keep an eye out for her in the Netflix film "Don't Look Up", which is coming out this year. And here's a little tip from me: go fucking Google that cast. Holy shit. It is an honor and a privilege to share my conversation with an incredible human being, Hettienne Park.
Claire: We were just talking about how it's been a shit long time since we've seen each other.
Hettienne: I can't believe it.
Claire: I know. I know. But you look amazing. You look exactly the same, so --
Hettienne: Oh God, So do you.
Claire: Oh, thanks.
Hettienne: We're doing something right, I guess.
Claire: Something, whatever it is. You and I met roughly 20 years ago, maybe even longer because it was before we did the shows. Right? And through Naked Angels, right?
Hettienne: That's right.
Claire: Yeah. So we studied with Naked Angels. This is a theater company in New York that are still around and still doing some stuff, which is cool. But they were, man, they were doing a school at the time and -
Hettienne: We were in the same, it was like a scene study class or something. Yeah. And you definitely were absolutely one that stood out immediately. Your work's so good.
Claire: Oh, God. Thank you. Jesus. Thank you. Uh,
Hettienne: You know that. You know that. I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
Claire: I'm not going to argue with you. But you know, it's interesting on my journey. Like that was a time where I feel like I was a total fraud, you know, and I feel like since then I've been working in a very different way and I feel a lot more comfortable with what I do and knowing that it's what I consider acting. At the time, I felt like I was just like trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
Hettienne: Interesting.
Claire: So I appreciate that. And also I bring more of myself to it now where at the time I was so concerned with hiding myself
Hettienne: Oh yeah!
Claire: That was a huge thing.
Hettienne: Hey - it was 20 years ago. We were babes - just trying to figure out how to walk. Right.
Claire: Totally! But an awesome creative time for all of us. Like we all kind of landed in each other's laps. There's about, you know, a nice big handful of us and kind of just wanted to work together and found ways. And a couple of us started a theatre company, which was what it was. But you worked with us and we were so happy to have you.
You are such, you were and are this force of nature. I mean, honestly, like you, you absolutely - shut up - you totally... You struck me as well. In all ways, just as a person. And as a performer, like my God, it was just like, oh, okay. She just raised the bar. Shit.
Hettienne: That's so kind, oh my God.
Claire: It's true. It's true. It's true. It's absolutely true. And I've always held you in that regard. I mean, clearly I want to see you. And I was trying to find a way to see you, but I do genuinely think your voice is incredibly important, especially now. No pressure at all, but there's a lot, there's a lot of work that needs to be done both in the entertainment world and outside of the entertainment world. I mean, that's a given. But you have forged so far, a pretty, pretty cool path. Like just, I mean, with your TV work? If you don't know, there's Hannibal, as the wonderful Beverly Katz. Oh my God. And there's a lot there too. Cause I know that there was a lot of backlash when she was killed off -
Hettienne: Spoiler alert.
Claire: Yeah. I know if you haven't seen it, I mean, it's like from 2014 or something, people, people die in Hannibal like big shocker. But can, can we start talking about that a little? What, how was that casting process? What was that like for you in general and then yeah. And we'll go and then we'll go from there.
Hettienne: Yeah, sure. Um, I, at the time I was doing a play on Broadway called Seminar and Bryan Fuller, the creator of Hannibal, saw me in that show. So I was asked to audition for the role of Beverly Katz. And when I saw the role I, you know, at that time I just was in the mindset of, there's no way they're going to cast me in this.
Claire: Why?
Hettienne: Because it had just been so much I, there just, there just wasn't that much opportunity, even though there were some castings that, you know, were trying so hard to be inclusive and used the word diversity and this and that after awhile, I realized, I feel like they're just doing that. So they can say that they tried, but they're not actually open to diverse casting. So I just assumed there was no way in hell. And I, I, it had been so long from the time he saw the show to the time I auditioned that. I don't know. I just, it didn't even really like land on my radar. I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever.
So I auditioned. And then, um, I remember going to NBC to talk to somebody there. And they were like, oh yeah, Bryan's really interested in you. And we liked your tape or whatever. And even I still, even at that point was like, yeah, yeah, whatever, nice to meet ya. You can check off your diversity box and then a long time passed after that.
And then all of a sudden I got the phone call, I think, where was I? I can't remember where I was, but I, I got the part and I, I don't think I even really fully believed it until I got to Toronto where we were filming.
Claire: Wow.
Hettienne: And you know, that was like my, my first like big, regular job I had just done kind of like one-offs here and there. So, we didn't even have there was no like screen test or anything and there was no, oh, we're going to shoot the pilot. And then it was just like a phone call. And then all of a sudden we're taping the show and it's going to be on the air. So it was like this really big, fast thing that was so exciting.
And I just remember. I think like I literally cried every day for, like, two months. I would go to bed crying, tears of happiness. Cause I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. I just couldn't believe it was happening.
Claire: Wow.
Hettienne: And it was so fun. But yeah, I'd lay there in my bed and just start like crying. Cause I would just start like giggling, like this is insane, like, you know, this is something you dream about as an actor. And I really, really did not think in a million years they were going to cast an Asian female in that role, but I'm so glad they did.
Claire: How did that, I mean, how did that make you feel clearly it was good for you personally, but as an Asian American female, like how did that land for you?
Hettienne: I just was super excited and happy and surprised, pleasantly surprised, but I didn't really think about it much beyond that. I didn't really think about what it meant, or the broader meaning of that. I just was so glad to have employment. Yeah. You know, like you just, so you're just so grateful to have income as a performer, so, yeah.
Claire: And probably some validation too.
Hettienne: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Claire: I remember reading, because I did a little research that when you started doing that role or started getting ready for that role, the idea was that it was only, she was going to be killed off in season one. Is that right?
Hettienne: Yeah. We, I had a meeting before we started filming with Bryan and he told me the whole idea. I was like that's okay, cool. I mean, it's not like I'm going to argue with him. "No! I'm staying!!!"
Claire: This is gonna be about her! It's gonna be called "Katz!"
Hettienne: But it was funny because initially he sort of had this idea that my character would get romantically involved with Will Graham, and then that obviously changed, which I thought was really cool. And, um, I remember he would show up and he'd say, you know, I really liked the way things are developing between you two. And I thought, I think it would be really interesting and super cool if we didn't turn it into. Cause he, I think, initially envisioned it being like a love triangle with me and Alana Bloom and Graham. And then he saw that there was an opportunity to not do that cause that's kind of boring. So I was really pleased that he was that open-minded again, still, you know, relentlessly open-minded and searching for you know, real storytelling in a way that there's some more representation and not falling for these as much as you can not falling for these formulas.
Claire: I mean, it's pretty amazing that whatever you guys were doing as long - as well as the writing - kind of inspired him to keep creating in different ways, like instead of like, well, we, this is what we're going to do. So regardless of what you guys are doing and how it's looking, this is what, the way it's going to go. That says a lot about clearly his intelligence and creativity and talent. So that's, and it's great to be one of the people that kind of inspire that. My God!
Hettienne: I mean, That's his MO. If you, if you look at any of his other shows, he's always really open and creative and smart and cool.
Claire: Would you want to work with him again?
Hettienne: Absolutely. Yeah. He's a dream. He's a dreamboat. I would love to work with them again. And I'd be like, "This time don't kill off the Asian. Racist."
Claire: No, I know, but let's talk about this because that it did strike a chord with a lot of people, right. Where they started kind of calling him out about being racist and sexist for killing your character off. And, and I know that you wrote a pretty lengthy blog post about that kind of acknowledging that you understand where they were coming from. And forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but also that that's not how you interpreted it at all. And that's not the Bryan Fuller that, you know.
Hettienne: It's an interesting, it's an interesting thing in light of everything that's happening now. Right? I've thought a little bit about that because I had a feeling, I can't believe how many people read that blog post, but the reason why I wrote it was because we were tweeting a lot with our viewers, even during the airing of the episode. So there was a lot of engagement, and I saw all these people really going after him. I mean, Like really attacking this guy. And he had already preplanned all this stuff and I 100% understand that it looked sexist and racist. I just never felt that energy from him. Interacting with him off-set, you know, I just never felt like he was the one that would pursue those things. But having said that, I can't say that as a white male, there isn't a frame of how you perceive the world.
And this is what we're all kind of examining, how we might be blind to systemic racism in a way where we don't even realize that what we're doing or what we're saying, or what we're choosing or not choosing is inherently oppressive to certain people. So I was defending him because I felt like he was trying to be inclusive and diverse in a way that wasn't, you know, just going down and ticking off all the boxes, I felt like he was doing it in a way that was still honoring the story and finding creative ways to, you know, cast women in the male roles that Harris originally intended, or casting different races and roles that didn't seem like it was open for that.
So from my view, he was really fighting for me. So when people started really attacking him from my perspective, I was like, well, he, he was fighting for me. He's the reason why I got to come back a second season. He is one guy. And I think a lot of people who aren't in this business, you don't, you don't know the inner workings of who has the final say, and who's got power and how these negotiations work out. And so I felt like he was fighting for me. And, but I can certainly, of course I can understand as a viewer, how it just seemed completely unfair and, and yeah, it was, it was messed up, but I don't think it was his fault.
Claire: Right. And him specifically, and he did everything he could to have it be like, considering the content of the show, like as respectful a demise as possible. How did that leave you feeling though?
Hettienne: Like I said before, I, it was so I was so used to being invisible and being, not able to get big roles that it didn't surprise me. I mean, I thought it was shitty. I was kind of like. Oh, okay. That's interesting. I guess you don't value me.
Claire: Yeah, you're expendable.
Hettienne: Yeah. They just made me feel like, oh, you're disposable. And as an actor, you understand that you understand that as an actor, you are, you know, kind of disposable, there's tons of people trying to get that part. There's tons of people in the industry. So you get sort of in the mentality of you, you learn to almost squash down your value and your self-worth and you're just so grateful to even be included, or so grateful to even be cast and employed that, cause you know, you struggle so hard just to get a part in anything. It's it's tricky.
Claire: You're right. You're absolutely right about the whole mentality of actors having to just expect that, the majority of the time, they're not going to be picked.
Hettienne: Yeah. I mean, look at the me too movement, right? Like you, there was all this shock and awe at how people could be so quiet around the way women were being treated and it's like, you and I both know like, well, it sucks, but was it shocking? Not really. I mean, everyone, there is so terrified of losing their job. That's so precious and so hard to come by that. Yeah. People are willing to look the other way. It became so much a part it's been so much a part of the culture. Yeah, I think one of the things that I've been trying to really embody is not allowing, not allowing the system to dictate my value and being able to say. You know, I got to draw a line, I got to draw a boundary and I do have worth, and I know that I'm the only one who can play this part. And if it's not for you, then move on because I know there's someone right behind me, but I, this each one of us brings something very unique. And I know that I bring what I bring.
So I feel like, each kind of experience that comes and goes, whether it's a win or, or a loss, it just kind of makes me stronger that way. And sometimes it results in not working for awhile. You know? And that hurts for an actor that really sucks and can be really demoralizing and discouraging.
But that's why it's so important to have other stuff. You gotta have other stuff going on in your life. You can't just have your whole worth wrapped up in whether you get the job or the callback or the whatever. You have got to have other things going on. So, you know, Luckily I had other things I cared about that I was like, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
I can just put my best foot forward and hope for the best. And if it's not meant to be, then I guess I'll do something else. I mean, I've been, looking for something else for a long time and I've just been lucky enough that things keep kind of keeping me employed, but I don't know. I get, you know, I, my, my criteria has become more defined as far as what you will accept and what you won't or...
Yeah, and it's hard. It's hard because, I'm not like in a position where I can pick and choose stuff by any means. But I appreciate that I'm like clear about my values and I'm I know what I'm willing to put myself through for how much and all that stuff. So that's super helpful, and I'm no spring chicken, you know, I know that. So if it doesn't, if it works out great, if it doesn't fine, whatever, it's not easy and it's a roller coaster, you go up and down with that.
Claire: Is there anything that you draw from or lean on when you need to help yourself feel that way? Is there anything you do or -
Hettienne: I look to my family, really. I look at my kid and I just say, what's it gonna take for me to leave? He's He's young, you know, like these are such precious years. And, it's going to have to take a lot to pull me away from him. I know that might not land right now. Cause I know there's a lot of parents who are working from home, doing remote school with their kids and they're like, get me away from them - so I know that probably is falling on deaf ears, but...
Claire: I don't know so much because I get it. Like, I think everybody has their own version of what this whole situation is like. So while they may not appreciate that maybe they can apply it to something else in their lives that they feel that way.
Hettienne: So, Yeah. So I, like, I, I like being around for him. I like seeing how he develops and changes every day. And I like, feeding him good food and reading books with him and all that shit. I love it when he drives me crazy. So he, he definitely keeps me on the straight and narrow. What else do I look towards? I don't know. I just, there's been so many instances where I've been treated like such garbage and there've been so many jobs where I was like, this is such horseshit. I'm not doing this again. I'm not gonna - this is not worth ... this isn't worth it. And I don't get my rocks off on like camera time. I know that's weird. I know a lot of actors, they just want their face on there so bad. I just want to be able to like, do the kind of work that you and I used to do with Naked Angels or the kind of stuff that I learned.
I started acting at the Esper Studio and the goal was always to be able to get to a level where you actually had to apply the shit that you learned on a job. And it takes a long, I mean, it's taken me a long time to, to get even like a, sort of a taste, a real taste of that. And most of the other jobs are just, I don't want to say they're bullshitty jobs, but they're, it doesn't require all that training and all that stuff that you are just dying to like use those tools that you've sharpened in your toolkit.
So you just kind of, well, if I don't get to do that, then I better be compensated for this horse shit. And then there's a certain line. There's a line like there's, there's like certain jobs where you just don't know what you're going to walk into, but I've had a lot of um, less than desirable experiences. So I It's easy for me to be picky now I don't react well to being treated poorly or seeing other people being treated poorly. I don't, I'm not the kind of, I'm not the, I'm not the stereotypical Asian female. That's going to be quiet and dutiful. And be the model minority. Yeah. And boy, do they not like it when you break that myth. Oh, they don't like that.
Claire: Wow. But are they surprised by that with you? Cause I say from the moment you open your mouth, it's very clear to me that this is not someone I want to fuck with.
Hettienne: Really? God! I wish everybody thought that.
Claire: I do. I really do. I'm like, she will cut me. To shreds.
Hettienne: Really?
Claire: And won't even blink. She will do it. And then turn around and have a cigarette and be fine.
Hettienne: That's so funny because I feel like, you know, I like joke around with people like I'm mad at them. I mean, Even my kid, I'm like, I'm going to punish you. And he starts laughing at me. "Yeah. Mom's going to punish me. Yeah, I'm gonna punish you!" Wow. That's cool. I don't think so. So I'll tell you a story. After I was pregnant, I think it's the first job I had after Hannibal. I booked a pilot and I was so used to my experience on Hannibal. And I walk into this pilot and I have a wardrobe fitting, and I'm like telling them what I like and what I don't like.
And they're kind of looking at me like, why are we didn't ask you for your opinion. Yeah. And I was like, huh. Well, okay, well, I know you didn't ask me, but I'm telling you. So then I had a question. We had a disagreement about my footwear and I'm a lot more relaxed about it now, but at the time I like footwear, you know, it like really informs everything, right.
Especially for women, like wearing a sneaker versus like a heel does something to you. So, I had a question about the footwear and I wasn't being difficult. I wasn't being bitchy. And they were like, well, you're going to have to have a conversation with the director. And I was like, well, I don't need to have a conversation with director.
Can I just have a conversation with you? And they were like, well, why don't you take it up with him? All right. So I went home, not thinking anything of it. And he called me and left me a message. And then he called me back and I thought, oh my God, he's so nice. I can't believe he's calling me when he's so busy.
Like, we're about to start on the very first day of shooting. He's, you know, the creator of the show. So nice of him to take the time to call me. So we're having a conversation and he's like, so I understand you had a question about wardrobe, something about your shoes. And I explained to him, yeah.
I was thinking, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I can't believe you're calling me. That's so thank you so much for calling me. I really didn't want to bother you. So I, explained it to him and he said, why don't you do me a favor? Why don't you go down to city hall and see what other people are wearing on their feet?
And why don't you shut the fuck up and show up tomorrow and do your goddamn job. And then he hung up on me. So here I am thinking, oh my God, he was so nice to take time out of his schedule to call me. He was just waiting. He was just waiting to take a big, giant shit on my face. So I immediately called my representatives and I said, get me out of this job.
And they were like, what? And I said, get me out of this job. And they were like, you're starting tomorrow. They're not going to have time to recast you. And I said, I don't give a fuck. Nobody fucking speaks to me like that. I'm supposed to work with this guy tomorrow? Get the fuck outta here. So he tried to call the casting people to get me out of the job.
He calls me back. I'm supposed to, my call time is at like four or five o'clock in the morning, this is 11:00 PM the night before. He calls me back and says, he's like yelling at me. And he's like, the casting people said that if you don't show up tomorrow, they're going to sue you. And I said, they're going to what?
And he said, they're going to sue you. They don't have time to recast your part. You have to show up tomorrow. So I showed up the next morning, my husband insisted on coming with me cause I'm pregnant, right?
Claire: Oh my God. That's right, Jesus.
Hettienne: So I'm sitting in my trailer and they come knocking on my door. They're like, you know, you got to go to hair and makeup. And I was like I need to speak to this guy. I'm not going to say his name. I need to speak to this guy. Let's call him, let's call him Dick. I need to speak to Dick.
Claire: This is the director.
Hettienne: He's the creator of the show. There was a different, there was a different guy directing this pilot episode, but he was the creator of the show. And and uh, they were like, you need to what? And I was like, I need to talk to Dick. And they just kind of looked at me weird. And they were like, you need to get in hair and makeup. And I said, no, no, no. I need to talk to him before I go to hair and makeup. So they left and they came back like three times.
Like, And each time they were increasingly more anxious. And I was like, listen, I need to talk to Dick. I am not leaving my trailer until he comes here and apologizes to me. And they just were like, okay. So about almost two hours passed. And Dick shows up with two people, he shows up with like his First AD and like an assistant or something.
So it's Dick, these two other people, my husband and I, in my trailer. And he's like really fucking pissed. And he's like, you know, you're holding up this entire day. You understand that? Right. And I was like, you know, that you owe me an apology. Right. And he just started turning all different shades of purple and red and blue. And I tried to explain it to him as calmly as I could. And he kept dancing around and saying, I don't understand what kind of pressure he's under blah-blah-blah and I was like, yeah, I was like, is this how you talk to the people you work with? Because I'm not going to be able to work with you if that, if you think that that's okay.
And he was getting, so he tried so hard not to apologize until I was like, listen, you can fire me because I showed up so that I wouldn't get sued, but here I am. And I'm asking you to apologize to me. Otherwise you can fire me right now and I'll go home. So he, like through gritted teeth, apologized to me, like slam the door to my trailer. And he was like, can, you know, just like stormed off. So I proceeded to. Do my job went to hair and makeup, made up for the two hours - we actually finished earlier than they were planning. So I think he felt really bad, but like halfway through the day I started bleeding and I was freaking out. Yeah. And I was like, this is kind of scary.
Like, you know, I'm a little bit older and it was my first pregnancy and I'm like four months into my pregnancy and I just needed like a minute to assess if this is something I need to go address with a doctor or if it's just spotting, sorry if this is TMI, but this is real. And so the wardrobe lady came. And she was like, is everything okay? And I told her, I was like, listen I'm pregnant and I'm bleeding right now. And I'm just waiting to see if it's going to slow down or if it's getting worse or whatever. And she was like, oh my God, I didn't know. And anyway, like throughout the day, I guess people figured out that I was the reason why we weren't getting the day started and they heard like what happened.
And one by one people came up to me and either thanked me, or like this wardrobe lady gave me a hug and they were like, this guy has been such a toxic asshole and has been treating people like such garbage, like, thank you so much for standing your ground, and yeah, I don't, I feel like if I were a male, I don't think that that would have happened. If I were a white female, I don't think that that would have happened. I can't say for sure, but that's the tricky thing about racism is no one's gonna like come right out and be like, I'm a racist or I'm sexist, or, I have an issue with women or, like they're not going to come right out and say that. So you just never know I can't tell are they being dicks to me because I'm an actor? Are they being dicks to me because I'm a woman? Are they being dicks to me because I'm a minority, I'm an Asian?
And you you can kind of, can't tell. And I think that if you're super young or forget it, even whatever, you don't even have to be young, you start to internalize that stuff and you think, oh, it's because of me, you don't sit there and go, oh, they're racist. Or they have a problem with women or they have some weird power trip.
And, you know, they're, they want to feel like you sit there and go, oh shit. Is there like what?
Claire: What's wrong with me?
Hettienne: What's wrong with me? Maybe I deserve this. Did I fuck up? Like, am I shitty at my job? Or you just start like course of course, is it because of, there's, there's something unsatisfying about the way I mean, you know, whatever you go down the whole list.
So when these things happen it can be very confusing, but I don't know why. I just won't. I don't like, I don't that's the thing is you have to go into it just being like. I don't care. You know what I mean? Like you can fire me, you can blacklist me. Cause you just, I don't know. You just don't want to believe that that's what it's really boiling down to.
And it's hard as an actor. Typically you're a more empathetic person and I feel like I, my, my desire now is to reverse that because I'm so angry that I'm like, I don't want to be understanding anymore. I don't want to hold space for other people's like why they were assholes or why they were dicks. I don't want to do that anymore. And I've resisted doing that because I don't want to be the difficult actor. I don't want to be perceived as bitchy or a diva or not know my place or blah, blah, blah, but it's not one or the other, it's you, you recognize your value and it's not out of, I know who I am. And I know that I'm not that kind of, I don't get off on the you know, your number on the call sheet. Like I don't. It doesn't really do anything to me.
Claire: I was interviewing someone two days ago who happens to be trans non-binary. And we were talking about their experiences. An when we brought up a casting director here in Chicago, who does all the like, Chicago fire, Chicago PD, all the other, the one Chicago ones.
And she's pretty much cornered the market on all of those. She's like at their studio. She's theirs and she's worked really hard and it's her casting office. And a lot of people interpret her because she's so good at what she does. And she's very serious about it. They interpret her as being bitchy because she's not all sweet, and nurturing ...
Hettienne: She's a woman.
Claire: Exactly. Yeah. And it's because she's a woman and it's like, no, she's just a fucking bad-ass. And she does her job really well, and she knows what she wants and she knows what she doesn't want. And she's not here to make friends. It's not that she's not friendly, but this is her job, and this is your job. And why does it have to even be about a judgment on her character? And if it were a guy, if it were a man, it would be accepted a lot more. And I think I'm not sure how to, I would love to address this in this podcast as well. Is the dynamic, the difference between the way people treat men and women - and specifically in this arena, actors and actresses, and then trans actresses, non-binary actors, you know, whatever. But it keeps raising its ugly head. Whenever I speak with women or about women, like, well, this is the way it's being interpreted because I'm a woman.
Whereas someone else who's a male that would never be questioned and it would be respected. And as soon as you start calling someone a bitch, you are not respecting them. And we do it to ourselves too. I don't know if I was a bitch about it, you know, the way we describe our behavior. But when you look at what is driving it, which is self-preservation, putting family first, valuing yourself, it's all stuff that you're absolutely as a human being in any profession entitled to make a priority.
But because we are women, we're not allowed to, or there's something difficult about us, even though at the same time, we're expected to be the ones that drop everything for our kids.
Hettienne: It's confusing too, because, there's also the other side of that, which is I feel like it's a very, the sort of way of framing, things of being hard or stern or approaching things with sort of this like war mentality, you know, or being like a boss bitch or whatever. It's like, it's all subscribing to this patriarchy, this sort of like colonial way of doing things. So yes, on the one hand you do that and you can be called a bitch. But that also in another sense, like gains kind of this respect, this way of being. A hard-ass or stern in a way
Claire: Because it's characteristically a masculine trait.
Hettienne: Yeah. So, you know, not to undermine what the point that you're trying to make. I think what I'm trying to say is it's complicated and super confusing, and women get screwed because, you don't want to be perceived as unable to do your job. You don't want to be perceived as, oh, you have to bend over to accommodate me and my kids and my part time schedule or my breastfeeding or whatever it is. But on the other hand, we're forced to work and this patriarchal system,
Claire: Just switching gears to theater. I'd love to look at theater. And did you, have you had similar experiences in theater cause that, a lot of that was very specific to film/TV?
Hettienne: I haven't done as much theater as I have the other stuff. I don't, I don't know, again, it's like really hard to decipher because I felt like I was so green when I started working professionally in theater and walked into some really intimidating productions right out of the gate, you know? So I can't say that I experienced that per se, but you know, Here's another great story.
Claire: Please tell me it's not about Alan Rickman, that's all I'm asking!
Hettienne: Oh no. Oh my gosh. No, no. Even if I tried to, I couldn't, God, I miss him. If we had more, more like him it would be a very different world. Can you,
Claire: Because I'm a fan girl. Can you tell me a little bit about Alan Rickman?
Hettienne: Yeah, he, what was the story? Oh yeah. Okay. So when I got cast in Seminar I didn't really know who the actors were and my husband was completely freaking out. Like everyone around me was freaking out about Alan, but I was like, wait, who is he again? I know it's so embarrassing. I don't watch a lot of things. So he was like rattling off all of his credits and he was like, you know, him, you know, trust me, you know, him. And I was like, I really, I don't think I do. So I meet him and he took us all out for dinner before we even started rehearsals.
And he was so just charming and lovely and normal and generous and the most available person ever. Like I remember like years after the play, I saw that he was playing Ronald Reagan in a film for Oprah Winfrey. And I remember he was talking to Jerry O'Connell and I about, you know, do you really think I can pull off Reagan? We were like, yes. So when I saw him, in the movie - there was like a photograph of him; Oprah took like a photograph of him as Reagan - I emailed him and I was like, oh, it's so great that you did blah-blah-blah. The guy emails me right away. And It's like a full bodied email. And I didn't realize he was directing. I think he was directing Kate Winslet's movie at the time. And I was like, so horrified. I was like, I can't believe you're responding to my, like, you're so busy. I'm like, I was like, I saw you on Perez Hilton. Like some you know, gossip rag or whatever, like just being a total jackass, you know, like,...
But that's the kind of guy, like he would answer, everyone's email. It wasn't just me. This is just the kind of man he is. He responds to every phone call, every email, every text. Every time he came to New York, he would organize a dinner and get all of us together for dinner while we were, the run of the show.
There were times when I would just say to him, "You don't get nervous anymore. Do ya? Cause I'd be like having an anxiety, you know? ". And he'd be like, "Yeah, I do." And I'd be like, "No, you don't!" And he'd be like, "Shut up, course I do". He said, "People have more expectations of me." And just these, just these interactions where he doesn't have to ... he had the whole, there's like a green room that we all shared, he like came in and had the whole thing redone. Put, like, a coffee machine in there, like a new couch, like all this shit for us to enjoy, cuz that's the kind of man he is, you know. His partner Rima, like the nicest, just the cutest couple ever. So generous, introduced us to all their friends. He was the most welcoming, generous, grounded, normal, fun, loving like never, I just never got a sense of feeling or exuding any self-importance of any kind.
He just. He stayed, he would autograph every single person, every fan that came to the stage door, he would sign every single one of them. He started off as a graphic designer, so he didn't even really get into acting until he was older, you know? And he, I guess he's to always kind of, get made fun of, for his beautiful voice.
He was just a very like humble. He was a really humble dude. He would see me kinda like huffing and puffing and being kind like nervous or whatever. And then I would like ask him another stupid question. Like, "How do you, how do I get better? How do I do this?" You know, He'd be like, "Just listen. All you have to do is listen."
Right. Okay. I'll just listen.
Claire: I'm so glad you got to know him.
Hettienne: Yeah, me too. Yeah. That was an amazing experience and he is such a great human being
I was just going to share another delightful, fun story about working on this play at the Public Theater. And one of my castmates, like I said, I like to joke around and I generally opt for humor. And this woman, I guess, felt safe enough to say to me in a joking way, "God, I used to hate Chinks until I met you." And I was like so there is that, it's just a weird, bizarre -- There was another time where I was asked if I would step in for, there was an actress whose father became really ill. And the production asked if I would stand in for her. She didn't have an understudy. And if I would () they were already performing), and if I would hold the scripts and stand in for her for the show. And I was like, holy shit, I guess I have to, you're screwed and gonna have to cancel if I don't. So I was like, "All right." So there was a rehearsal so I could get the blocking down. And there was an actor who, right before I walked on stage in front of an audience, starts hitting on me right before we walk on stage.
He's leaning into my ear, and says something dirty to me in my ear, right before I walk on stage. I'm like I have script in hand. I just learned the blocking, like less than 24 hours prior. Which is, suffice to say, very stressful and nerve-wracking, and the motherfucker's hitting on me. Not only did they hit on me right before I walk on stage, there's a certain part of the blocking where we cross each other. We pass each other, and as we're passing, he says something disgusting to me.
Claire: What the fuck?
Hettienne: The next time we're performing. They always did this thing before each show where we would circle up, the cast would circle up, and we'd get really close and say nice things. And this guy made reference to his penis and a joke that involves me.
Claire: Oh no.
Hettienne: And everybody kind of stopped and stepped back. And I looked at him and I was like, "Are you serious?" And so I had to, at that point I called the director of the theater, the Artistic Director, and I reported him. On SAG. And I reported him, and he ended up getting - he lost his equity card. I didn't call SAG - Equity. He lost his Equity card and he got in big trouble. And I remember feeling at the time, oh my God, did I do something to encourage?
Claire: And then do you question how you're going to handle it as well?
Hettienne: I felt really conflicted because I was like, I don't want to ruin this guy's life. But like I thought about the other actor coming back and I was like, oh my God, has this been happening with her this whole time? And she hasn't said anything, and is he going to keep doing this to people? So I didn't have a problem with reporting him. I just definitely took a moment. It was like, oh shit, this could end him. But I was like, he can't get away with this in the middle of a performance. You're going to say shit to me on stage. Are you insane? I'm helping your production, you piece of shit. And he met my husband. He met my husband before he did this. He shook my husband's hand. Yeah. So I was like, you're a psychopath. Like you're done. Get out of here.
Claire: Did he present it like as a joke when he was in, this is not to excuse it in any way.
Hettienne: I'm sure he thought that it was funny, but I'm sure he also thought that that little Asian girl's not going to do anything or saying anything because he's probably gotten away with it before. So yeah, when you say to me like, oh you know, you look like someone who would cut me, he didn't think, he didn't think so.
Claire: Yeah, but you did.
Hettienne: He didn't think so.
Claire: Yeah, but you cut him! Exactly. Because you're not, you know why don't, Jesus don't mess with you.
Hettienne: I don't know. But I don't like this job. I don't like how I keep, I forget about all these stories and I'm like, I guess it had to happen to me because I was going to do something or say something and not just like lie down and take it. But I don't, I don't like experiencing that and I don't like being the person to ... nobody does. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of this. I'm going to have to be the one to do something about it or be the one to do something about it. All these amazing people who are putting themselves out there as advocates for anti-racism, the amount of fatigue and exhaustion and heartbreak that they just have to endure is staggering to me. I don't know how, I mean, I've been having a really fucking hard time, the past couple of weeks, like really, really hard. Very reminiscent of right after my mom died hard. And I don't know how these heroes are just relentlessly putting themselves on social media, being attacked, controlled, and having a really process all the shit that's happening and, trying to bring people together and bring them some kind of help. I don't, I don't know how, I don't know how they do that every day.
I have a question for you.
Claire: Please.
Hettienne: How do you, I assume that because you're an artist and an actress and an empathetic human being and an intelligent human being that it's easier for you to kind of want to dive in and examine these things of, you know, saying, you know, I'm coming from a place of privilege. How - why do you do that? Versus having the choice of being like "That doesn't really directly involve me or affect me, and I'm already dealing with all this other stress and shit. Like I can't hold on to that stuff too." What makes you decide to even have this podcast and have this conversation versus - you know what I mean? Like what, what makes you different from the people who are "I can't hold that mental space. I don't want to make that effort. I don't want to do the work," Right?
Claire: Yeah. I hear you. To be honest, it's not, I don't have a choice to be honest, because maybe because of all the things you listed maybe because I have a very, because I've lived in outside of this country because I was raised by my parents.
I have two boys that could very easily go that way. They are the patriarchy, they can very much easily go that way. But I honestly, it's not a choice. It's not a choice. Cause I, and I wish, maybe I need to think about this some more. Maybe I need to really do some investigation because that's an absolutely more than valid question that I don't know that I can answer any better than that's not, that's just not an option for me. If I have a brain in my head and compassion for people which I do, and I have an investment in connecting with people, that's what feeds me. And that's what makes my life full. It can't be about anything else, but one human being to another. Just like, I don't want anyone to judge me for being fat or nearing fifty or - and I'm lucky that I can only pinpoint a couple of those things.
I don't really, I don't really have more of an answer than that, except that that's just, it's just not a part of my makeup, maybe. Cause I was born and raised in New York City, which is incredibly diverse, and have been fortunate enough to have friends of all shapes and sizes and colors and creeds, religions, whatever. Maybe because my parents worked really hard at it. I don't know. I just know that I can't see people in pain and not want to help and not want to try to fix it. And I can't fix it without turning it on myself first. And I'll be the first to admit that I am, I know that I've had racist thoughts. You know, I know that I've probably done a lot, maybe not overt aggressions, but microaggressions. I, and then I know I'm not perfect. But I know that that's not okay. Deep down. That's not okay. It's not okay to treat other people that way. And it's not that I don't see color. It's not that I don't see differences, but I absolutely appreciate them.
I think I feel like I have so much to learn from it. There's a big debate going on about white culture and what that is. And while I'm sure there is, and I think that there different shades of it. I don't feel like I have the same investment in whatever my culture is that other cultures might, and the pride in which they should have, you know, and they do. And a lot of them do. And there's a part of me that's envious of that. And if it's, if I'm envious of it, then there's something to learn from that. Then there's something beautiful in that. Right.
I just, yeah, I just can't, I can't, and I'm not, I don't know that I'm doing a good job of any of it. I don't know. I don't, I'm sure. You know, I always think there's more I can do. But I, I'm trying and I'm trying to learn, and I don't understand how people feel like that's an option for them. I just don't.
Hettienne: The system is designed to make people feel like there's something wrong with you, that you're inadequate because if each of us realized how powerful we are, if each of us realize what we're actually capable of, the system would turn upside down. And all those people who are benefiting from it would be at risk. And I think, I hope what's happening right now is that people are starting to see the system at work and going oh, I see what's happening. And then you can opt out. You can wake up to it and decide not to let it hold you back. Not to make, not to turn the anger towards yourself. It's taught to us from the day we're born. And if you happen. I, my view and my belief is if you happen to be, someone who's more in tune with your feelings and more, emotional or more empathetic, it is going to be more of a challenge to break out of that shit.
Claire: What do you want to work on? What would you - like if you could, if COVID, wasn't a thing and all the bullshit, all the shit that's going on, which is not bullshit. Forgive me. What would you want to be working on?
Hettienne: You mean like professionally, personally? What do you mean?
Claire: Professionally first? And then if there's stuff that comes up, personally.
Hettienne: What would I want to be working on? I'd love to do another play on Broadway. I don't see when that's going to be happening. I think we're still a couple of years away from that. Like I said earlier, I think, any job where I get to actually do the kind of work that we've trained, we've been trained to do would be really fun. How do you work on that? I think you, I don't know. I feel like acting, that's the great thing about being an actor, cause there's so many things that are not great about being an actor, and I guess just in life, it's, it really, I feel like your success goes hand in hand with yourself development.
So all those things, the self-confidence and the finding your voice and knowing your truth and all of those things really inform your work and help you become a better performer. Personally, I guess it's just more of that. Just having more faith in myself as an artist which is really hard cause that comes with experience and, seat time, which is not always easy to get.
But the more opportunities I get, it's always such a tremendous learning experience for me. And I do think that representation is really important. Obviously. I think that, we live in this world where we're all different shapes and sizes and colors and have different perspectives and we all, there's something universal in all of our stories because we're all living this human condition. And it's a hard thing to do, cause it can't, you can't be so mathematical about it in your storytelling, have one of each thing represented. But I also, feel like it's having the multitude of stories. It's not enough to just have one trans actor, one Asian person, or one ... it's like there's multitudes of stories and they're not representing, the representative story.
And so when, for example, like no offense, but like when Crazy Rich Asians came out and it was like this big coup or this big victory or whatever, I just looked at that. And I was like, that's to me, like the celebration of this capitalistic CRAZY RICH ASIANS. And we're just plugging in our faces on this already gross story. But I'm not really into that genre anyway. I'm supposed to like, be like, oh yeah, we did it. It's just something about it felt not quite right to me. And I guess all of that is just to say it's not about ticking off a box, whether you're in the entertainment industry and you get like that one minority actor in your cast, you check off that box. I'm done. Like, no - and likewise in life, you've got, oh, I've got the gay friend, the Asian friend, the Latina friend and the, whatever friend I'm in the clear, I'm not, I don't have any biases. I'm not, I don't have any blind spots. It's: nah, no, that's not. It's more, there's always more, not to poop on any of the talent behind those big franchises, but that's not satisfying. And I don't think, I don't know, like I'm very much interested in not participating in wanting to perpetuate the power of this patriarchal system that, has racism built right into it. And sexism built right into it. Like I, and it's hard to find those stories, but I hope the writers' rooms will become more diverse because that's where it all starts. The more stories we can tell, the more we humanize these images or these archetypes or whatever that exist in our psyches, like the better.
Claire: I think I have covered most of the things that I wanted to talk about, but I am happy if you feel like there's something that you want to talk about. I'm happy to do that.
Hettienne: I did a movie here. It was my first project during the pandemic. It's a Netflix film about two amateur astronomers who discover an asteroid is going to come and destroy our planet. So they go and alert the White House. And it's a satire about global warming and climate change directed by Adam McKay. Look out for Don't Look Up on Netflix coming out sometime this year.
Claire: Okay. So in 2021. This was really so good for me. So good to see you. So good to talk to you.
Hettienne: Thank you so much for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast and congratulations on your podcast. It's really a such an honor to have anybody want to listen to me, blow some hot air. So thank you for that, because I think I needed to get some of that off my chest.
Claire: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And I'm just so glad you were open to it and thank you for just, doing your shit and saying, saying your peace. And that's what I hoped it would be
Claire: This is where I usually share my thoughts about the episode. And to be honest, I had something else planned, but Hettienne graciously listened to it and pointed out that it was not as helpful, nor impactful as it could and should have been considering the platform and the audience and the - honestly - emotional heavy-lifting that my guests are doing in recounting their stories.
And I have to listen. So to that end, here are a couple of ways you can directly help folks. Hettienne would specifically love to highlight the organization Heart of Dinner, which provides food and groceries to the elderly East Asian community of New York City. They do this by supporting local small food businesses during their COVID-related recovery process.
The food is hand-delivered, along with a handwritten and illustrated letter in the elders native language, to bring warmth and comfort. If funds are low, you can also volunteer to decorate the bags and/or write the notes. Their website is heartofdinner.org.
Another wonderful organization that is helping not just the Asian, but the BIPOC and LGBTQ+ communities is called Hollaback! They provide guides and trainings for bystander intervention, standing up against street harassment, conflict de-escalation, mitigating implicit bias, and more. The trainings are free, and as someone who has taken the bystander intervention training, I highly recommend them. It was extraordinary and empowering, and I feel so much better equipped to help stand up and support people. Their website is ihollaback.org.
One of the things that both Hettienne and I, if I'm being honest, really want to make sure that we hammer home is that if you're an actor or an artist and you have either one or a team of representatives, whether that's an agent or a manager or whatever, please, please always remember that they are on your side. They are on your team and they work for you. We as actors are somehow conditioned to think that when an agent wants to sign you, that means that you automatically work for them. And they're the boss. And that's not the case. In fact, the, probably the ideal relationship between an agent and an actor is one of communication, trust, and an agent who understands the nuances of your life and understands that some of those nuances need to take priority over a job.
Hold onto your power. Do not give it away to one of your reps. It is a two-way street. You help them. They help you. And you need to bring your authentic self to the table. And that's how you'll find that team member that will get you and will understand you and will advocate for you.
It is really important to fill your life with other things on top of acting. You can always have acting, but if you don't have relationships, if you don't have life experiences, if you don't have hobbies, things to fall back on, then you're not finding out who you truly are. And the way that you're going to work is when you're most authentic. And that's not the reason to be authentic. When you find what makes you special and unique and your true voice, people are going to want to work with you. And if you don't, then your whole identity is wrapped up in an industry that is unfortunately full of rejection, sometimes abuse, and sometimes is very toxic. Oftentimes it's beautiful, and it should be, but not all the time. So please, please remember, in these relationships, your sense of self and your life and your priorities are the most important.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Big Bones, Thick Skin. Endless, thanks to Hettienne Park for not only sharing her stories, but giving her time and energy to teaching me. Thanks also to Eric Backus for creating the awesome eighties-style music, Meredith Montgomery for creating the incredible BBTTS artwork. And Amelia Driscoll from Summit Podcasting for her tireless help with editing. Help us out and subscribe for more honest, thought-provoking, and occasionally funny conversations with me and my guests. And thanks for listening.