Plus-sized model and photographer Emma Meyer sits down and helps us pick apart external and internal fatphobia in both the modeling and acting worlds.
12/03/2021
Big Bones, Thick Skin
Episode 3 - Emma Meyer
Incredible plus-sized model and photographer Emma Meyer talks about how she got into modeling, Rachel Bloom's many assets, training with the National Youth Drama School of New Zealand, her internal struggles when seeing bodies like hers portrayed on the screen, Lena Dunham, and how her love of Harry Potter took her far from home. We cover fatphobia in modeling, Emma's efforts to use her experience in front of the camera to help photograph and make other fat models feel comfortable, and how much harder Black and Brown models have it than even plus-sized models.
Calls to Action:
The Loveland Foundation:
thelovelandfoundation.org
Healthy Hood Chicago:
healthyhoodchi.com
Brave Space Alliance:
bravespacealliance.org
Editing by Amelia Driscoll at Summit Podcasting - https://summitpodcasting.com/
Music by Eric Backus - https://www.ericbackus.com/
Artwork by Meredith Montgomery - https://www.meredithmontgomery.design/
Hi. Welcome to Big Bones, Thick Skin - the podcast that talks to marginalized actors about their experiences in the entertainment industry. I'm your host Claire Alpern. This podcast is near and dear to my heart because I am a plus-size actress and I've had to navigate a very specific journey in the acting world.
Here I'll be holding space and having conversations with other plus-size actors, as well as those who identify as trans, Black, Asian American, queer, gender non-conforming, tall, short, old, young, and more - to tell their stories and share their feelings of being miss- or under-represented in entertainment.
We want it to change. We want to see everyone represented, but we need to talk about it first. And this is the first step in doing so. Welcome to Big Bones, Thick Skin.
It's our responsibility to acknowledge that the land where we live and produce is occupied land. Chicago, Illinois is the territory of the Potawatomi, the Kickapoo, the Miami, and the Peoria peoples. We pay our respects to elders both past and present.
Today's guest is someone that I met very recently. And by met, I mean, not actually in person - over the phone and email and Zoom and all of that stuff. She came to me through my agent. So she is an actor, but she's probably a lot more known and has a lot more experience as a plus-size model. She's also a photographer and specializes in plus-size photography because she knows what it's like to be on the other side of the lens.
She's got a lot to say, as I'm sure she would say herself. And I mean that in the best possible way, cuz she's fascinating and funny, and I really found myself thinking with her, which is always nice. Please welcome Emma Meyer.
Claire: Hello Emma. Yeah, you're on this podcast for a reason. We have the same agent, which is super cool. Big Mouth here in Chicago. Shout out to the ladies and gentlemen at Big Mouth. And we were put in touch basically through them because I put a call out to any actors that felt like they had stories to share and wanted to talk about - specifically for right now - being a plus sized person in the industry.
And I know that your industry is a little more fluid than just acting. But then I'm also hoping to open this up to other kinds of marginalized communities and really talk to as many people in as many identities as possible. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? Let's start there.
Emma: Yeah. Well, I should start first by just saying that I think it's really great that you started this and that you reached out to other people. Obviously there is a need. I mean, there's a million podcasts right, so like, how do you decide to do something? And I think a lot of people talk themselves out of it, or they don't find something that actually has meat to it and has value.
And you've found that you've found a really cool niche to talk about. And hopefully it will not just give people confidence to discuss their own stories, but to start having more difficult conversations with other people that, that may not share the same experiences, but have all been put through the ringer, like any actor ever.
Claire: Yeah exactly. We've all gone through some variety of, I don't know if it's discrimination or bias or not being represented properly. So I thank you very much for saying that. I really appreciate it cause it's, yeah, there's very few things that kind of like strike me like a lightning bolt where I feel really good about and confident about, and this did, and then having the feedback from people who are really interested in it has just been such a motivator and so wonderful to share.
So thank you. And I feel like this is a really crucial time when the industry is finally starting to listen to people. And they're already opening their minds to change, you know, in, in terms of diversity. But I feel like it needs to be opened more because they're probably still looking at it in that tunnel vision kind of way, when it's talking about like race and probably gender identity, but there are other like, yeah, let's talk about body size. Let's talk about body height. Let's talk about age. Let's talk about parenthood. Cause that's a crazy journey to be a parent and be in this industry. So yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm so psyched that you're here and that you're willing to talk and because you do have a very, I mean everybody's perspective is unique. But you've got a really cool one. So yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself.
Emma: Okay. So you want to know about me.
Claire: I do.
Emma: Okay. Okay. I'm trying to remember what we talked about oh God, it's so funny. Cause I'm really good at talking, right? And I'm a Libra, which I feel like out the gate, I need to explain, because so much of how I take the world in is, or so much of how I relate to people is finding the commonality between my experience and theirs.
And so often it's just kind of often considered - and quite often fairly considered - to be a very self-centered thing. Right? So I have been trying to recalibrate how I talk about myself. So, when you're asking me like about myself, I'm like, okay I'm trying not to do this anymore so...how do I do it?
Claire: You have license to talk about yourself. Full license, please.
Emma: Well, and it's also like a first date, right?
Claire: Yes! We've never met before...
Emma: Kind of like my elevator pitch, for myself. Okay. So in terms of acting, I guess I could start with that. This is about actors, right? I grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana. So you know, in the region and then I. Like most, ten-year-olds got obsessed with Harry Potter. I swear this all comes back. Don't worry. I read them obsessively. Yeah, it was insane.
And by the time I got to high school...I played sports for a very long time. And I had a very serious knee injury the end of my eighth grade year, which meant that my athletic career was over.
Claire: What sports did you play?
Emma: Volleyball. Basketball and soccer.
Claire: Holy smokes. Which one was your knee in... or your injury? Was it your knee? Did you say that?
Emma: Yeah, if not, you're psychic. That's incredible. Well, it's also fair, like to think that if I'm playing volleyball that there might be any injuries. No, it was in soccer, so and I'd had issues for a very long time. But then it was just. I had the decision of like, do you keep playing sports and get new knees at 25? Or do you do something else?
And I was like, I don't really even love this anymore. I'm doing it 40 hours a week. And it feels like a job. And I don't know what it's like to be a kid. And I hope my dad doesn't listen to this cause he'll feel very disappointed. "I didn't know I did that to her!"
So yeah, I guess I should say I, I played sports and then I just, I'm a very big personality. I'm the youngest of three girls and you kind of have to do what you can to stand out. Also, I was just a little shit head. So my parents like put me in acting classes as a kid. And I actually met my best friend there when we were nine. Like we're still best friends, and there's a lot of things that I can be mad about for acting, but if I got a best friend out of it, then totally worth it. But so I played sports. And I had some acting stuff in the background. And then my freshman year of high school, I auditioned for Blythe Spirit after like having never been cast in a play ever. And I had a perfect British accent because I'd been obsessively listening to Stephen Fry read Harry Potter, for nearly a decade.
Claire: That is brilliant.
Emma: I'm sure I was god-awful. I'm sure it was...
Claire: Yeah, and a specifically posh accent if it's Stephen Fry...
Emma: Exactly. Yeah, you know your Stephen Fry. So that got me into it and I was like, Oh, I'm like, actually not horrible at this. And the craziest thing is, in this show, you know, the cast is what -six people? Three of us make a living acting now. Like two live in New York and I'm here in Chicago. So it was like, it really was like the closest thing to something being magnetically right, right? Like all of these things fell into place and it's, whatever.
I didn't really, I didn't get cast and this is actually really important too. I don't know if we should talk about it now or if I should come back to it, but I have been 5'9" since I was eleven.
Claire: Wow.
Emma: So when they would send me out, you know, to youth theater stuff, I would get cast as like the mom, if I were to do it, you know, I'd always get those roles.
And that ended up being true throughout high school. And I know we kind of joked when we were on the phone about, missing being that kind of fat, you know, for me, I was like 12, but when you're 16, 17, you just, you feel like a brick house. And there are just not roles that are set up - especially in the high school setting. Right? I always got kind of like, you know, my senior year of high school, I was both Jan in Grease and the fucking old lady in The Crucible.
Claire: Oh for God's sake.
Emma: Like I showed up to that casting, Claire, with my boobs strapped down and I read for John Proctor. I was like, there's no boy that can do this. I'm going to fucking do this. And just like, we can...
Claire: That's brilliant, though! Bravo to you that - fuck that shit like good for you for claiming that.
Emma: Well, cause I knew I was taller than like almost all of the boys and I was like, they're not going to make me the lead. So I'm going to make myself the lead, and it didn't go anywhere because I ended up being, what was it, Ruth? The old lady that dies at the end, with everybody else.
Obsessed with Harry Potter got me my first ever stage role. Also made me realize, especially after having played sports and no longer being able to exist in that space that like, I didn't like anyone I went to school with. You know, I had like five friends, but I didn't, I was no longer a jock, so I didn't have a category.
And I was like, my friends will talk about it to this day; just, like, I was just this floater that just went from place to place because I hadn't - so much of my identity was tied into being an athlete. So sophomore year of high school, I get my first job at Target and, you know, you're making money for the first time. It's great. And I'm just spending that money on stupid shit, which is something I'm really good at right now. Since I can't leave my apartment, so I just like get packages every day. So I was wasting this money and I said to my mom, I was like, "Hey can I go to boarding school? Like I don't want to be here in Fort Wayne. I like, I want to be a part of this bigger world." I just wanted to be outside of my small town. Right? Yeah. And I acknowledged pretty early on that, if I wasn't going to be spending that time and energy doing SOMETHING, that I needed to then focus that energy on something that mattered to me.
And I was a good student. And I had friends and I, whatever, but like nothing felt special. So, I asked my parents if I go to boarding school and they said, no fucking way. And then I was like, "Well, how about this? How about I become an exchange student?"
Claire: Ooh.
Emma: And they're like, okay girl, if you wanna pay for it, you got two sisters in college. There's no way that you're going to do this. And then I took that as a sign that I needed to prove them fucking wrong.
Claire: Challenge accepted!
Emma: Exactly. And I worked for my entire sophomore year in the photo department at a Marsh supermarket and spent my junior year in New Zealand
Claire: NOOOOOOOO!!! I lived for a year in new Zealand! How did we not know this???
Emma: As a fellow, former Kiwi. I think you understand that you don't just drop it anywhere. You know you to save it, it's a golden little factoid.
Claire: It really is. So tell me about your experience in New Zealand. Oh my God!
Emma: I got, I mean, once again, I don't know how to really describe my life before, like, thirty, in a way that doesn't sound like it's like utter bullshit. Like there's so many times that I should have died. There are so many crazy things fell into my lap that I could never replicate again. Right. I don't know if that's just like the weight of youth, right? Like everything's so much lighter and you have so much less to lose. And so the want is so different, you know?
Whereas like now when I want something, when I allow myself to want something, it's almost like corrosive, right? Like it's, or it's almost like I'm holding on too tight that I can't let things happen. And obviously so much of that has to do with the complete lack of control within our industry. And then also, our year of the Lord, 2020 has not helped anybody's anxiety and lack of control. I thought, I really thought that at some point it would be like, oh, well, nothing is in your control. So just have fun. And now it's more like nothing is in your control.
Claire: Right? And therefore you must suffer.
Emma: Right. So everything sucks. But this is a really good example or, you know, going to New Zealand was a really good example of that sort of kismet situation where it's just kind of like, I couldn't have planned anything better. But my host dad was the founder artistic director of the National Youth Drama School of New Zealand. So I spent my school breaks acting and being surrounded by, you know, some of the best kids, child actors in New Zealand. And also it just looks really great on a resume. Like I'm not a good actor, but I can be like, I went to the National Youth Drama School of New Zealand.
Claire: That's fantastic.
Emma: And it carries its weight. I did all that work in high school and was like finding my footing and feeling more confident. Whether it was justified, we'll never know. But I had connections from the National Youth Drama School of New Zealand and I got an audition to work with a theater troupe in Italy. So, I auditioned. Yeah. Like the end of my senior year, lived in Italy for nine months.
Claire: Oh. My. God.
Emma: Yeah. It was insane.
Claire: And all because you made that decision. I mean, it does come back to your decision to want to go to boarding school and become Hermione Granger. You voiced it and you made all that happen. So even though this stuff landed in your lap, like it wouldn't have, if you hadn't put it out into the universe like that's amazing.
Emma: Well, and just the focus, I think too of just, I have to give a lot of credit to growing up in a pretty fucking boring hometown. And that I had two parents that were really encouraging of my imagination. So because of that, I could see myself in other places. And I think that's ultimately what it all comes down to, even within acting, is taking up that space and saying, this is something that I want, and I can back it up with with my passion, with my drive, with my commitment. And one of the things that I remember the most that I've never been able to shake was there was a director at the National Youth Drama School. And and he said, especially with acting, almost exclusively with acting you have to create your own luck.
Like you come to the table with your set of skills, but there's no such thing as being too prepared, right? Like always be well-rounded always work on your skills. And then when you have that opportunity, you're going to have everything that you need. I mean, he obviously said this in a way cooler and way more concisely. I'm sorry, it's been about 15 years. I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was just the sentiment, like create your own luck and you don't, you can't just be lucky. You have to do other things. And, I think that's essentially what you're saying. I don't mean to summarize for you, but you're right.
Like I could not have made those opportunities available to myself. I couldn't have risen to the occasion if I hadn't prepared. If I hadn't tried...
Claire: And been ready for it too. If you haven't been ready for it. You have to be, as a person, ready for those opportunities in order for them to really present yourself in the perfect way.
Emma: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think I really do that much anymore. You know, like I, I get so, I mean, and this is probably a conversation we need to have anyway, but I feel like so much of what's frustrating about what we do is there's a box that we are put in and it doesn't matter how anything I am. I don't even get, like when you, when you asked what my dream role would be, my initial thought was I would just love to play a woman whose body is never spoken about. I would love to exist in a space and it wouldn't be like, even the casting call wouldn't be like chubby, but pretty, or like fat in all the right ways. And you know...
Claire: Or not mention, not mention the body size at all, because that's not a factor...
Emma: And it shouldn't be, and it's you don't get to see plus-size women on TV without it being like, made blatantly aware. Like she has to either be really funny and like always eating or she just had a baby or she's always struggled with her weight or, it's just like, can we just...
Claire: And she's never happy about it. She's never comfortable in her own skin. She's never confident. And she's never okay with just being herself at whatever size she is. There's always commentary on it, both from her and everyone else. Yeah.
Emma: Well, and, yeah, I didn't mean to cut you off. So much of what's frustrating as well as like, if the woman is confident, then she's hyper-sexualized.
Claire: Yeah.
Emma: So it's like, yeah, you can get these roles. And it's like, oh yeah, but you have to be like really slutty or you have to - I mean, it's whatever. I believe in women's ability to express their sexuality in whatever way. But those rules are not being written by women that look like us.
Right. They're being written by, it was like, oh, we need to make this look a little bit more interesting. So we're going to plug in like a chubby friend. Who's just like really funny. Or if she is sexy she's hyper-sexualized and she is the unhinged friend. Um, which, I mean, to be fair, if there's a box that I fit in, that's probably it.
Claire: Yeah. You know, it's interesting when you were talking about the. I believe it was the, I believe it was your host father who was the head of the National Youth Theater of New Zealand. If I got that right. Hopefully. Was he the one that said, that had that basically that brilliant --
Emma: Create your own luck?
Claire: Whoever said that, you know, when you said that in my head was like, yeah, unless you have a body that doesn't, I mean, you could do all of that stuff. You know, the talent, the smarts, the confidence the homework, the preparedness, all of that can be done. But if your body looks different, then you're not enough in a lot of cases, that's the way it's felt. So, yes, I completely agree with that, but it's, but it's like, I've been conditioned to go. Yeah. But not me because. Because of this body that I live in...
Emma: Well, and it probably doesn't help that it was stated by a wealthy cisgender straight man. Right. So it's so easy to say shit like that. Like it's the same sort of like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You know, you just have to pick and choose the things that, that apply to you. And it just sucks because I mean, even as, as difficult as it is to be plus-sized in a vision-driven medium, such as acting it's a thousand times worse for people that have bodies like us, but aren't white.
Claire: Oh yes. Oh God yes.
Emma: And it's so hard to come to terms with that in a way that it's just like, I can be mad for myself, but I'm even more angry for. The essential, like, if we're talking about trickling down, what we all get by being plus-sized, it's just crumbs. So when it comes to people "below" us, it's dust, like what is there?
And that is something I feel like I see a lot with modeling is there is, especially with this push to be size-inclusive, which is cool. And there's just been a lot of issues, with how white, so many, luxury brands look, right? So they're casting more people of color which is incredible, but I don't think it's, I think it's a bandaid, right?
Like I think it's something that makes people feel better where they're like, oh we cast a black girl, but what they're not talking about is like that black girl had to do her own hair because you don't have a hairstylist that can do it, or, what happens with size inclusivity is you can't have like I fit into I'm very fortunate.
At least the way that I started is that I have a sort of vague ethnicity, which is honestly a pretty shitty thing to bank on. Right. Because I mean, they want somebody who maybe looks Hispanic, but like isn't full Latinx, like and it's shitty. And that's how so many of us were like put into, I mean, even Ashley Graham, who is the biggest name that you know. We have so many castings together and so many jobs that we've both done and it's just like, they want somebody who isn't - they want like the girl next door, but they also want her to have a little bit of flavor. And there are so many of us white women that have made money off of that. But the differences happening now is they are almost fetishizing certain plus size women, right? So they're like, well, we want to have a girl with natural hair. We want to have her picked out Afro because that's the only way that a black woman gets to be in the ad now. And then we have like a really pretty blonde girl. And then we have maybe a red head who short, you know, just to show that we like care about height. And then we want to have a brunette plus size model.
And it's like, no matter what they're doing, they're still always trying to hit every single category. And by trying to hit every single category, they're not being a hundred percent anything. They're being 25% four different things. And I feel like that--
Claire: Yeah. They're just trying to tick the boxes. Exactly.
Emma: For sure. And it's really hard not to feel taken advantage of, but at the same time, it's this is the career that I've chosen and it's complicated. And I think I, if there's anything to be said, or for me to define myself in any sort of way is like, I'm deeply conflicted across the board about representation, about, the ethical sourcing, of clothing products, fair wages, like it all, it it's all. So in like, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's really hard to defend, right? What I do is really hard to defend, but it's also something that I love. It has nothing to do to with clothes. It has to do with who I'm working with and what I'm doing and those opportunities to grow and shape as a person.
But yeah, it, it's just complex because it feels like every bit of progress that is made, it's still only made for the people that are making the money.
Claire: Yeah, of course. Of course.
Emma: So, yeah, at the end of the day, it's like, I, is this the hill I want to die on, but then you have the same conversation of what you were saying at the very beginning, which is you wish there had been conversations like this for you to listen to before.
And that is one of the only things that like keeps me focused and centered when it comes to, you know, doing bullshit Instagram ads or whatever. It's like, I don't know what I would have done had I seen somebody that looked like me when I was 17. And I have to think of that. I know that. So like self-centered, but if there's a silver lining in any of it, I hope that that's like it.
Claire: I don't think that's self-centered at all. I don't think that's self-centered at all.
Emma: Maybe it's more self-centered like, in the thought that like, I think anything I do matters that much. Like, oh my God.
Claire: Yeah, but it matters to you. I mean there's validity there. And what matters to you surprisingly could also matter to other people. So. Yeah. How, did you get into modeling and would you consider yourself a model or a plus size model?
Emma: Oh, I mean that age old question. Right.
Claire: And I don't know anything about it. So I genuinely am just like, "Tell me.
Emma: You know, I think I have no issue with plus size. The label. What I have a problem with is, the negative connotation associated with plus size. I have zero issues being put into that category. I have to shop for plus size clothing. So I'm not ashamed to call myself plus size.
Do I find it shitty that people put the plus size clothing departments in the basement or in the back, or give us three options? Yes. So I'm happy to wear that label. If it means that I'm normalizing what a plus sized body is, I have zero issue with it. There are other models that I, that I know that I have worked with that have issues with it because they think it's diminutive, right? That to be a plus size model, you are then automatically lesser. But when nobody talks about it was like, shit we're basically exclusively - other than maybe four models right now we are commercial models, which is where you make the most fucking money. Yeah, no, the cover of Vogue shout out to Paloma, who is though next month, which is incredible. But you know, that. $150 a day.
Claire: Wow.
Emma: It's all about, yeah. It's that sort of like exposure thing, which is always great, but exposure doesn't put food on my table.
Claire: Right? Yeah.
Emma: Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. So I, I have no issues with it, but I can understand why some women who, are kind of like the in-betweeners, you know, like the American Eagle sort of models that are an eight or a 10 and, you know, are, would really have to starve themselves to be sample size, which is a size 2. I think it's incredible there's space for them finally. I don't think, you should be limited, but it also comes down to sample sizes. So...
Claire: Which is not dictated by the people that exist in the world. It's dictated by the designers. Is that right?
Emma: Yeah, totally. Well, it also comes down to in the commercial setting, it comes down to like their actual samples from their factory in China. Right. So they can send you a size 12, but it can also come down to whoever's doing the buying. And it was like, well, we want to shoot size 18 models or size 20 models. So we're going to have our samples be 18 or 20.
Claire: Gotcha.
Emma: So there's still room to grow. Like there, it doesn't have to be that decisive, but with plus-size modeling in particular It's really hard because with straight size modeling, which is what it's called, you have to have incredibly specific measurements.
And that's why everybody is, you know, a zero or a double zero, because they need to fit these forms. They need to fit what, and also, I mean, Christian Siriano does a good job of that as well. Where he'll make his samples for a size 8 or a size 10, right? Cause he's just building them on a form and all you really have to do is you make that sample. And the reason why it starts small. If you make it for the smallest person, then you just scale up is what it's called, which is why a lot of plus size clothing sucks because all they're doing is they're adding two inches for every --
Claire: Right, right, right, right, right.
Emma: And then by the time it gets to an 18, it's just like this like flowy fucking mumu. So that is the process of why we have sample sizes, the way that they are and because of the zeros and double zeros being that basis, when it comes to plus size modeling, they usually do about a size 16. And when you have a model that wants to both make the money of a plus size model and be thin, women will wear padding.
Claire: Are you kidding? No, of course you're not kidding.
Emma: So it's essentially the same as, I wear Spanx religiously. It's like having Spanx, but with little inserts where you can add padding to your hits and get like your butt, your hips. Yeah. So that's why every once in a while, you'll see like these models that have like, that are plus sized that have like super skinny arms. And it's like, ...
Claire: Ah, that's a fun exercise. Look for those models. Super curves and arms that don't match. Wow. How is that viewed by plus-size models that are actually plus-sized models? Like, what are your thoughts on that?
Emma: I'm, you know, I, I don't think it's necessarily a question of like, um, you know, there's, there's enough for all of us, right? I like to, I need to always make space in my brain for that, that, you know, if it's meant for me then it's meant for me. I don't have a problem with women that do that, especially because, and I don't mean to generalize a lot of these women that are those, 10s that are padding up to be a size 14, so many of them share their stories of eating disorders and how they spent so long trying to be sample size and they've found their body where they want it to be where they feel they're most comfortable. So they pad because they also know that they are not their healthiest or happiest at a 14, so I can make space for that in my mind.
I don't think the fault lies on them. I think the fault lies on art directors and stylists that automatically and very genuinely prefer thinner people. So if they have to work with a plus size model, they want somebody who doesn't look like a plus size model.
Claire: Interesting.
Emma: I think that's the version of I guess. It's not stigmatized. I I'm really, really, really happy that I spent so much time reading the dictionary last night, I have zero words.
Claire: It's Wednesday.
Emma: And it's gray out. Like I said, it's Groundhog day. I think there is absolutely positively a very serious issue with the people that are dictating what makes a body valuable. What makes it beautiful? What makes it aesthetically pleasing. And that's why I think if there's ever the opportunity, most art directors will sway to the smaller size. I think almost always they want something that looks as much like Karlie Kloss as possible. They want those cut cheekbones. With just a little bit of fat in the right places. And I think it's just a problem. I think it's the same thing. It's not the same thing - I don't want to make them seem like they're similar, but I think the inherent preference of whiteness also plays in.
Claire: Sure. Yeah.
Emma: There's so much to be said too about anti-fatness and anti-blackness, and, you know, the, what do they say? The "Mammy-fication" of women, you know, like if you're fat, you have nothing to offer. And unfortunately that gets placed on women of color at much higher rates than, you know, people that look like us. So I think that, I think it's amazing how our bodies tie in, and our skin color, even tie into how we're valued. And I think the fact that we're starting to see more models of color, in the plus-size industry is super important because just like I was saying before, instead of being 25% in, you're making a very important choice to say, you've seen people that look like Ashley Graham for years and years. Now it's time to see a brown girl. Now it's time to see a black girl now it's time for somebody shorter, somebody --
Claire: Now it's time to see someone who looks like you --
Emma: Which is never the objective though, with modeling. I mean --
Claire: Clearly it's not.
Emma: Yeah, it's always the ideal, right? You build off the ideal because you want people... And that's the thing too, is like all of these brands have tried to use. Influencers, you know, people who are don't have modeling contracts, which is, I mean, at this point they're making more money than I am. So I, that is not a shade. Like that's not me making fun of them. It's just that they don't have, they're not sample sized, they're not plus sized sample size. Right. And so brands have been trying to use them and it doesn't sell same with using like, 'm at like full 18 right now, probably a 20.
And they often find shooting anything over a 16, it just doesn't read because people want to see the best that they could possibly look, which is why their 5'10", 5'11", you know, six foot tall, perfect skin, all of that. And it's also like, everything is set up. The lighting is perfect. Like I, honest to God, I look like Fred Armisen, but you put me in front of like really good lighting.
You give me an hour and a half of hair and makeup. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm, I'm pretty hot. And, but that's what I mean is like, it's all like we're pinned like or the clothes are sewn to fit us. So even when we're wearing, it's not really going to get everything to look so much better because the end game is to sell them.
Claire: Sell the product.
Emma: So yeah. To sell the product. So even by using bigger bodies and people that look more like somebody would run into on the street. It's still not enough. You know? And that's, what's so hard with, with plus size modeling in particular is like, there's no, there's no middle ground. Right. Like you're supposed to be really hot, but like, you can't be too hot, but then you also can't be so normal. And I mean, that's probably just plus size everything. It's, I'm sure it's the same with, with, with acting as well. Yeah.
I think there's definitely some overlap. Yeah. It's like you can't be too hot. Cause then that conflicts with the category that they've put you in as a fat person, but you can't be too fat because then it's scary for everyone and uncomfortable for everyone. But yet you can't be somewhere in between fat and skinny because they don't know where to put you there. You have to be like. You're either fat or skinny. And this to me is like with acting at least like, and if you're fat, then there's a reason why they're casting a fat person as opposed to just a person.
So I actually have a question for you because I know you said you, I'm assuming you also really love British TV as well. Having spent so much time in London.
Claire: Oh, I am the biggest Anglophile.
Emma: So. They look normal. I feel like British people look normal, which is not code for ugly. They just look normal.
Claire: I can name many un-ugly British people.
Emma: Oh, hello Idris Elba. Yeah.
Claire: He's the first one that I thought of too!
Emma: I notice that when I see somebody that is slightly separate from the traditional concepts, specifically women, on American TV that their bodies are just a little bit different. That takes up a lot of mental energy for me. Do you have any sort of similar - and I can't tell you why --
Claire: Can you give me a little bit more, like, tell me a little bit more about that. Cause I'm not sure I'm following.
Emma: Like if I see somebody who I, I maybe like Rachel Bloom is a good example, right? Like, I don't know, also not the best example because she's incredibly talented and her tits are massive. So, you know, she's not, she's not like falling into a normal category, but I remember the first couple of times that I saw her, I was like, this is allowed?
You're allowed to look a little bit different? It took up a lot of my energy and I'm somebody who I like to think that I'm very open-minded, but I was fascinated that that took up space in me. Like, that that crossed my mind. Because I also, you know, I watch a lot of British TV as well, and it's just like, it doesn't come up, but it's almost like everything in contrast in American, everything is so glitzy and so bright that when you see something that's a little bit divergent, it almost distracts me, which I hate about myself.
Claire: Yes, yes. Yeah, no, no. I get you. You know, what happens when, when that happens? When I see someone like that - and I'm being completely honest here, I am not being the person that I'd like to be. When I answer this question, I immediately get resentful and jealous because I'm like, who told her that that was okay. And no one tells me that that's ok - like, why can't I do that? When did this decision get made that this is now okay. And why am I not at the top of the list. I've been working so long and so hard. And I am so professional and I, you know, like everybody I work with loves me, tells me how talented I am, but yet I don't get called in. I don't get the work. I, I don't get any of this stuff. What the fuck happened? Why did I not get the memo? And then I, you know, chastise myself for a bit and then say, because you know what, with Rachel Bloom? I mean, didn't she like have a hand in creating that?
Emma: Oh yeah. I mean, she's right. And that's kind of the argument right across the board, right? That you own it. You only get a foot in the door if you do everything.
Claire: Right. It is up to you to create that and carve out that space for yourself because they're not going to do it for you, but you have to present such a spectacular project and package for them to even consider that you have to jump through such incredible hoops to get a moment of their time to consider that. Then all the bullshit that I see on all the streaming devices that have never made it to the theater. That I'm like, "They made this show. People signed off on this shit, people gave this shit money, and it's the biggest steaming pile of shit. And yet we have to bust our asses and never make a wrong move just to try to get our foot in the door." and I'm not angry about it.
Emma: Definitely I'm not bitter, no way. I know, I guess, I guess I'm asking that and I'm, I'm obviously working through it myself because I think you're hitting the nail on the head of what I'm trying to put words to, which is when that happens, I wonder if the mental Olympics that I'm doing when I see somebody that looks even sort of like me comes into play is like essentially a lot of what you're asking too is like, how w why is it that, like, why, why did that happen?
And then I flip the conversation back on and say, I shouldn't find this surprising anymore. Like this shouldn't be, this shouldn't be shocking anymore. It should be normal. And that's, that's so much of the conversation that's happening with, BIPOC creators as well is like this. I shouldn't be the first anymore. We shouldn't have first like this in 2020
Claire: There shouldn't be a BIPOC label. It should just be the standard that this is all inclusive. For sure. And let me just say, let me just, let me just follow my little rant there.
Emma: Oh, well I cut you off. So please --
Claire: No no no. I do want to make sure that people understand. When I see a Rachel Bloom and I go through that entire inner monologue and feel sorry for myself. I do ultimately get strength from seeing her up there and I'm like, fuck yeah. Yes. Whatever you had to do to do it, you did it and you're doing it and in your own way, you are paving the way for generations to come. So God bless you and come on my podcast. I mean like, yeah. So I do, I mean, I do come around and I don't --
Emma: Oh, I totally didn't mean to suggest that you didn't.
Claire: And I just felt like that was still hanging in there. And I was like, I need to make sure that people understand. Because it's true. I do genuinely love that she, as an example, is able to do that. I fucking love, I may not love all that Melissa McCarthy does like the projects she chooses to do, but God damn, she is like starring in her own shit. She's doing the stuff that she chooses to do. And she's so good at it.
Emma: And it's taken 30 years. Like...
Claire: And it's taken 30 years. And she's like, God fucking bless her. I, you know, I, I love her cause she also seems like a really great person, which is who I want, you know, we talk about like, I don't want to make people fat champions, you know, like you're the role model for fat people, but like if anybody's going to represent a fat person, I'm very glad that she's one of them.
Emma: Oh yeah.
Claire: Yeah, I just, I think I have a lot of respect for her and anyway, that was going off the topic...
Emma: No! And I think I need to be more concise about the idea of what was going through my head, which is, when I see somebody who's body is not a size zero, which is - okay, some people are naturally that way. There's no body shame on either side for me. But when I see somebody who's a little bit different, I am personally distracted by that. And that narrative becomes very frustrating internally because I'm like, why am I paying attention? Which then ties into, I think the frustration that both you and I are getting at, which is this is surprising and new and different because no one else is doing it. So I would like to see a fat body and not be distracted because it's the first time that I've seen it in the 70 shows that I've watched this year.
Claire: Right, right, right. We're just as distracted by it as probably other people are. And I get frustrated that I'm distracted by it because I'm doing exactly what I don't want other people to do.
Emma: Yes. Thank you.
Claire: When we show up.
Emma: See, we got there in the end.
Claire: No, I'm completely get it. It's very, there's a lot. There's very fine lines there. And we're part of the same society and we're, you know, while we may be distracted by those bodies in the same way, they're coming from very different points of view.
Emma: Sure.
Claire: Like ours, which is. Wait a minute. Wait, but is she as fat as me? No, no, maybe not. Oh, but she looks really good in those jeans. So maybe they hired her because of those jeans. Would I look good in those jeans, I don't know. Like, and that goes on too. And then it's just like, I'm personalizing it as opposed to other people objectifying the body.
Emma: So when you're talking about -- I wonder if that's part of the reason why Hollywood is the way that Hollywood is. You don't want people to actually look like you, you want to be so taken away and so distracted by the beauty that you then don't have to question whether or not you're enough, because none of us look like Nicole Kidman, none of us look like Charlize Theron. Like, they are one in a billion people, you know? So it's like, it's almost like if we don't have to see ourselves, we then aren't distracted by not being enough.
Claire: Right.
Emma: Which is bullshit! I want to not be distracted because I want there to be people that look like people that actually live in the world.
Claire: Yeah, exactly.
Emma: Not just in Hollywood.
Claire: Because part of the reason why I don't feel like I'm enough is because I don't look like them. So it reminds me, instead of taking me away from it, it reminds me that I don't look like them. Therefore, I can't have that experience that I'm watching that is moving me so much or that romantic experience or that sexual experience. Because I - that's not my body up there having those experiences. That's the message that I am getting from them.
Emma: Interesting. I mean, I'm going to have to think about that. What, what do you think of Lena Dunham? Like what did you, what do you think of like her body positivity? Cause I know people are like, it's either shock value or it feels very well.
Claire: You know, to be honest, I don't, I don't, I haven't really followed a lot of that. Probably because I heard more negative than anything and, and when something is presented in a negative way, it's hard to find out what the actual objective reality is in the situation. So, yeah. Well, well tell me some of the things that like you're referring to with her.
Emma: Well, when you were talking specifically about, like sexually. We don't see fat bodies having sex. And she's like the first person that I have ever thought of that has done that. Cause I don't, I don't really know. And it was HBO of course. Right. So it wasn't like cute sex. It was like real sex with people in their late twenties. And it was so interesting to see her truly wanted by somebody that looks like Adam Driver. It's like, oh my God, is that possible?
But she, she is such an interesting example of the type of person that looks like somebody you would run into at Trader Joe's. Like she's a completely normal looking person, but it also feels like kind of in the vein of what you were saying before. I don't necessarily love her all of her projects. And I don't know that I always agree with what she says, but I do think her failures are highlighted in such an extensively aggressive way. Like it's like she's held under a different microscope and it's like, people don't want her to succeed because she looks normal.
Claire: Well, and also she's pushing the envelope with, you know, while she's looking normal. And it's coming from her mind, you know?
Emma: Yeah. Interesting.
Claire: It is interesting.
Emma: I feel like it totally took us off the rails.
Claire: No, but I love it. It's totally pertinent. And it's really like, that's the whole idea is to really just kind of try to unpack this shit and sift through what really matters. And, you know, and I can't say that Hollywood is trying to make me feel less than enough because I don't see my body up there. So it's just as valuable for me to say that and realize maybe that's not what's going, maybe that's just your interpretation of it, Claire. Maybe that's not what's going on and then be able to move on from that, you know, so I think just being able to say this stuff out loud to someone that gets it and has opinions about it as well, from a similar point of view, as opposed to talking -- and I'm happy to talk to thin people. That's not an issue. I love thin people. But they're not coming from the same place of their body size.
Emma: Sure, sure. Of not even being able to get in the door because of your body size.
Claire: Exactly. I mean, yes. They may not be able to get in the door because of their color or their gender or their gender identity or their age or whatever, but it's, those are all very specific journeys and ours is the one that I'm traveling down right now.
Emma: It's so interesting. Cause what did, what did, what exactly was the phrasing that you said of like, of Hollywood? You know what it is for me? It's not that I don't feel like enough because I'm not being reflected in screen. I understand that they can't make everybody happy. I mean, although as a plus-sized woman, a plus-sized white woman, it seems like that would be a really easy market to make happy, because we're, like, 60% of the population.
Claire: Seriously.
Emma: But I think what frustrates me more - it's not that I'm not represented. It's that I'm not even thought of. I'm not even a part of the conversation. No, one's writing for me. No one's thinking about me at a dinner table or even as an extra, because I don't fit that norm. And it kind of comes back to what we were saying before is like, I just wonder if there are that many people that find fat people distracting that we don't even get to be a part of the vision, even for a shitty Netflix show, you know?
Claire: Yeah. I get that. I totally, I totally get that. Like, it's just, we're just being ignored. And that's even an active, it's not even like we're being ignored cause that's, that's an active thing. It's, we're just not being considered. It's just not...we're just. Yeah. It's just...
Emma: And mad props to like Aidy Bryant with Shrill.
Claire: Oh my God. This is not the first time she and Shrill have come up.
Emma: Well, I mean, also a Chicago girl. Well, I mean, not really Chicago girl. She was here at Second City for like a year.
Claire: That's fine. Yeah, fucking God. Yeah.
Emma: For the, the hoops that like you were talking about before for the hoops that she had to jump through to get that, like she had to be on SNL for almost a decade.
Claire: Yeah. No kidding.
Emma: And she had to do a script that was written by, you know, like a fucking Oscar nominee, like all of this stuff. Like it didn't just get to get made, like, no matter how good the writing was, just like, what you were saying is like all the things that had to be done just to justify the thought of a show like that is mind blowing to me.
Claire: Can we go back just because my own curiosity, how did you get into modeling?
Emma: So I got into modeling, I got into modeling...I don't know why I'm making this so convoluted. So the visual that I have, the moment that I thought to myself, that I might be able to do something like this was when I was living in Italy. And I was flipping through an Italian Vogue, and Kate Dillon had this gorgeous spread with Marina Rinaldi. And I thought to myself, Oh, my God, she's gorgeous. And she kind of looks like me. And especially like living in Italy where everybody is like, unshakably pretty at all times. So for me to see somebody in that moment and say, oh my God, that's incredible.
And I remember this very drunken night in Milan, as a 19 year-old would be wontto do, off house wine. The $7 that I spent on seven carafes of house wine, which was better than anything that I had ever drank. There was a, yeah, very drunken night in Milan and I was sitting on the balcony and I was getting kind of close to the end of my tour.
And someone said, well, what do you think you're going to do next? And I said, I think I want, I want to be like Kate Dillon. Like I want to do what she does. I want to, I want to make beautiful things for people that are like me and I wanna show people - like it was, I was so drunk and obviously, so, I mean, I should be slurring my words while I'm explaining it, but I just remember having this, like being overwhelmed with this thing of like, this is something that maybe I can do.
Like, I'm pretty in pictures. I love fashion. Like I'd always been doodling and, especially being larger, like my entire life, I would make a lot of my own clothes. My mom was a really good seamstress, so we would, you know, I would get stuff at Salvation Aarmy and then alter it to make it work for me because I didn't really, I didn't have anything cute.
I didn't have any cute options in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And I think when I was like 17 or 18, a Torrid store came into the mall and that was a big deal. And I remember my mom took me and she was like, you can get jeans that are not from - no shade to Lane Bryant, but like, don't go up to your tits.
Yeah. I love them. I love them now because I would like everything to be held in place. But when you're 17, you're like, well, I would like, you know, maybe some low-rise jeans, like maybe I want something that stretches and is not made of cardboard. That is shade. That is direct shade. I have zero regrets. So Torrid came to Fort Wayne and I think I was starting to able and seeing those images.
Right. And it's so funny too, because I ended up working with a lot of them. A lot of the girls that were on those walls.
Claire: That's amazing.
Emma: When I was 17, are - not, I mean, I don't work nearly as much as I used to, but you know, are essentially colleagues. And I remember seeing those images and thinking, wow, this is glamorous. This is beautiful. And that was in the back of my head. And then I went to Italy and I think really grew as a person. And then seeing Kate Dillon shot like a Vogue model and not just like this happy fat girl, which is totally my MO. I started modeling in 2010 and that is all that we had space for. Like, it was, you were not hot. You were just happy to be included.
Claire: Yeah, jolly.
Emma: Yeah, I'm just happy to be here. Cause anything like me feeling pride or joy in my body is intimidating to people. Which also I'm so sorry. This is so convoluted, but it also comes down to kind of what you were saying before is, especially when I was working a lot more, like when I was in my prime I, well, I even still do a lot of lingerie stuff, but it's more of like, fuck it. Like, look at my body. You don't get to look away. But I remember somebody I really cared about saying to me, how do you have so much confidence? And I took it as, the way it translated it into my own head was why are you allowed to have confidence?
And I think about that all the time. Where and I feel like that's so much of what being plus-sized in the world is, is like, oh, you're, you're allowed to break the rules and not hate yourself? Because I do, you know, and like, and I look like the perfect person and you don't and yet you're still happy? That doesn't seem fair.
Claire: No.
Emma: And that's like ...
Claire: If anyone has reason not to be happy. It should be you.
Emma: Yeah, exactly. So with that in mind, I felt kind of that way about seeing Kate Dillon is like, she was just beautiful and nobody was making a big deal about it. And I thought, God, that would be so fucking cool. And so this, this drunken night, I just thought to myself, this is what I want to do. Like I love myself and I want other people that look like me to know that they're allowed to do that too. Yeah. Especially in the small town that I grew up in. There's no representation and I don't want to use that word too heavy-handed because I don't think it's entirely fair. I feel like that representation is a word that's more important for other people right now.
But when you, when you aren't given anything... We live in a capitalist society, right? Like, so it's always about having enough. And when you can't even be enough with the right kind of jeans and the right kind of, you know, clothing, especially in high school, then it's almost impossible to feel like you're ever going to be accepted because you can't even on the basic level, do the one thing that everybody else is doing. You can't fit into that Tommy Hilfiger shirt.
Like I remember that I remember going to Hollister and there being nothing for me. So I didn't get to have that connection with my friends, which sounds so fucking basic, but like when you're 15, 16, like that really hurts because it's one more way that you're disincluded.
Claire: Yeah. Oh God. Yeah.
Emma: And so Torrid coming in that was a big deal. And they had they used to have model searches every year. So every August they would do it. And I had had that drunken conversation about what I wanted to do when I got back to the States and I had the Torrid model search in the back of my head. Cause it happened every year and I was like, oh, I'm not really pretty enough.
And then I came into my own and I was like, oh, this is something I can do. Like, why not? And I got home like a week before, the competition. Oh wait, well, no that, I still took me like two more years. Let me get that right. I got back from Italy and then I, then I was in Asia for like four months.
Claire: Wow.
Emma: And then the next year I was in Europe that August. So yeah, it would have been, it was 2009. I was in Italy 2007. So it's not even like, oh my God. I came home perfectly. I think it had just always been in the back of my mind. Maybe it was even that I saw Kate and I didn't know that that was something that somebody could do with their lives, that they could just be beautiful.
And so that was in the back of my mind you know, for, it would have been in for, for a couple years. And my mom passed away in 2008. So I came home and I was like super listless and didn't know what to do with my life, which is already hard enough when you're in your early twenties. And got back into theater, kind of really threw myself in there and finally wasn't traveling abroad.
So I had gotten some headshots done and I sent them into Torrid. And I won the model search.
Claire: Wow.
Emma: So yeah, it was, it was insane. I had just gotten these and like, I, it wasn't even digital. Like that's why I'm giggling is like, I remember the manila, manila, vanilla envelope? It tastes just like vanilla. And I had to print off headshots and fill out a paper application and send it in.
And I am, I was doing a show at the time and I missed tech rehearsal because they flew me out to LA.
Claire: Holy shit.
Emma: I didn't think I was gonna be in it. And I remember telling the director and he was like, why didn't you tell me that this was going on? And I was like, cause I didn't think I was going to fucking win a modeling search. Are you kidding?
Claire: Oh my God.
Emma: Yeah. So my 22nd birthday, that's how I spent it.
Claire: Wow.
Emma: And it took, I mean, it still took six, seven months for me to get signed. I went into, yeah, I felt, I was like, oh my God, I want a modeling search with Torrid. Like, oh, they're just there going to be knocking on my door. And I went to an open casting, which also for the record, if there's anybody that has questions about modeling. Just, just send in pictures, just send your pictures into fucking agencies and say like, you can ask me all day long, but I'm not an agent.
And I, I don't have any ability to tell you whether or not you're going to make it because I can't book you for anything. But I, that's also just the moral of story anyway. It's just like, send your fucking pictures in. And so I went to New York, I guess it would have been like January and I went to Wilhelmina. I went to Click, I went to, I went to every open casting that I could go to. I'm trying to think of who the other one was at the time, because I mean, they're all like gone now. But for four different and I got just "no's".
Claire: Oh, wow.
Emma: But I had been contacted through the modeling search, a photographer, so I shot with him. And it was for Plus Model magazine. So they came, they brought me in because I just needed. To do like a they needed the second person, right. For the shoot. They just needed another person to be in it. They needed like a background person and he was like, you can be in this and then I'll just shoot you in between.
And then, you know, you can use that for your portfolio. And I was like, well, that's incredible. And they ended up giving me my own spread.
Claire: Oh!
Emma: Yeah. So like I thought I was just, and they were like, well, you did really well, so --
Claire: Holy shit, that's...
Emma: I'm just gonna shoot you. And then at the end she was like, well, who's your, who's your agent. I just want to like, let them know, like, thank you. And like, we need to send the images somewhere. So, yeah, and I was like, I don't have an agent. I came here, nobody wants me. And so she, the editor put me in touch with a couple of different people and both times it was, there was one that the contract looked really weird. It's a, it's a good example of like, you know, listening to your gut.
I was just so desperate to be a signed model that I was like, I don't, I don't care. Yeah, sure. And then the other one, it was, she was just like, you're just not tall enough, you know? Cause I'm five, nine. So and they ideally your 5'10", 5'11", just because once again, sample sizes.
Cause they want you to be taller. And so I came back to Chicago and I went to see Elite, which is now Stewart, and the guy was a dick. I am 22 years old. And he looks me in the eye and he was like, you're too, you're too old for this. And I was like, okay, that's it. I'm never going to be a model.
This is, I can't handle this. And then I have like one last effort and I was like, all right, I'm just going to send in my pictures to, you know, it's the biggest fucking modeling agency in the world right now. I can handle rejection. I've gotten it so many times over. Like, it's not gonna be that weird. I send them in on a Sunday night and I get a call from the scout of Ford-Chicago Monday morning.
And it was like, wow. So I drove. The next day to Chicago and they signed me. And I, I am not like I never would have sent that in because like, why would, why would Ford go for me? You know? Cause that's who Ashley Graham was with and Crystal Renn and Precious Lee. And like, there's no way that I could be that.
And then I just sent in the pictures and moved to Chicago the next month and now it's been a fucking decade.
Claire: Wow. Wow. And what has that been like? What's the last decade been like with that? You know, as a plus sized model, what's...
Emma: Well, 2020 has been its own decade. It's ...
Claire: Let's, like, not even include that.
Emma: Oh, I mean, this is less pertinent, I think probably for your, your podcast, but just personally what it's been is - Ford was a really big deal in the early 2010s. And they had complete control. So I did an interview with my local newspaper and it had to go through legal, like legal had to approve it. Like they were... And especially when I was working with New York and in New York, on the New York board, which is a big deal, which is, you know, my picture was next to some really fucking big people. And they had complete control and I kind of loved that and I was like, I like to follow rules. So this is not weird. But, when Instagram came along and when blogging came along, we were not given the opportunity nor were we encouraged to pursue it. And by not doing that, by giving up my control and not creating something for myself, I lost out on a really, really, really big window. Or really big opportunity, I should say, not a big window, a very small window of time and a very big opportunity to essentially create my own brand. I didn't stick up for myself and I did exactly what I was told.
Claire: So, so you're saying that at that time, if you had done what, instead with Instagram?
Emma: Honestly it's more blogging. So there are, I mean, especially if you're thinking like 2012, you know, the height of blogging of like pre-influencer culture essentially, and work in the peak of Instagram culture, influencer culture right now. And so, what I made the error in is I should have been listening to myself and I should have been creating these for myself.
So even if it wouldn't have been anything big, I think I really regret - and I use that word very lightly, or I don't, I don't use that word lightly. I am very, I don't really believe in regret, but it is one thing that I have of, I wish I would have created my own opportunities and taking advantage of the fact that I am a photographer and, you know, and that I love fashion.
I really should have been writing and doing all this stuff before the bubble popped. And that, that sounds like very remorseful. But I, I mean, I was thinking. There's room for other things, and I'm really proud of what I've been able to accomplish as a photographer.
Claire: So tell us more about that. Tell us more about the photography.
Emma: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, living in New York, it's like one of the easiest fucking places to shoot because it's such a like character-filled place. And when you have really hot friends...
Claire: Native New Yorker!
Emma: Yeah. I was trying to avoid saying it's almost like New York is its own character. But yeah, so I just picked up my camera and I would shoot my hot friends and I, I got a lot of experience doing that. And then when I finally moved to Chicago, moved back to Chicago in 2015, I knew that I wanted a live/workspace and that I wanted to use that time because honestly, I guess all I'm trying to say is I can't be mad at Ford, right. For discouraging me. I should have listened to myself. That's a fact, but the biggest thing is like, I think it's so important for creative people to continue being creative. And I really just let myself be directed instead of creating my own joys, I guess. And that's why when I finally moved back here and I, I live in a loft, so I shoot in here as well.
I think I finally felt like I had more control because at least I was doing something for myself and I wasn't just waiting for the phone to ring or that confirmation email or whatever. So that, I mean, that's, that's it, photography came in. I've always had a camera in my hand, but it, it became a creative outlet for me, which ended up being something that really saved my brain.
Claire: Great. And what kind of photography do you do?
Emma: Oh, yeah, so, headshots, although not that often cuz I'm too artsy. But I shoot other models, so I'll do model tests for their portfolio.
Claire: Gotcha. And do you focus on plus-size models or...
Emma: Yeah, so I'll do a little bit of everything. But I am more known for working with plus bodies which is something kind of, we, we discussed a little bit, is that being in front of the camera as a plus-sized woman can be a very disrespectful experience. I think I, I told you that one of my, one of my tests that I did for my portfolio mind you, that I paid money for they came back and there was not a single full-body image of me, even though I knew that they had been shot because I changed my shoes cause I slicked my legs. And it was such a shitty feeling.
Claire: Yeah. Did you say anything to the photographer or did you just move on from it?
Emma: I think that was in the window of time where I just didn't know that I had a say.
Claire: Gotcha.
Emma: Which sucks because I paid the money. I should have, I should've said no fucking shoot me again. Like, but then I took it on myself of like, was I not good? Was I not good enough? Is that why it's just my face.
Claire: Yeah.
Emma: And it, it totally like beat in that narrative that I'm sure you've heard a million times too, is like, when people say, oh, you've got such a pretty face,
Claire: Such a pretty face.
Emma: The rest of you sucks though.
Claire: Yeah, I know. I'm like, and the neck down? Not too bad. Depends. Yeah. Okay.
Emma: How shocking, how shocking that I have something underneath my chin. But yeah, so I mean, if, if anything it's a good example of, or not a good example, it's something being able to shoot plus size women and make them feel the way that my straight size models do, you know, like enjoying...
Claire: How do you handle them differently?
Emma: I don't, I treat them exactly the same way. And I don't just zoom in on their faces. That's the difference is, I guess the, the thing that would make me different is not what I do differently with them. It's that I am willing to really work with people and help people find their comfort. Especially when they have been disrespected. And when you do get in this mind of like, oh, this is the only way that I can pose, because this is when I look my thinnest. And it's like, you don't owe anybody you're thinnest.
Claire: Right. Right. Exactly. That's wow, yeah. Huh. I, yeah, I, I would imagine that there are not a lot of photographers that know how to not only acknowledge the body that is not thin. But then embrace it and still make the person feel like their entire body is as beautiful as everybody else's body.
Emma: Well, and I would hope that that would be what is received. You know, I can only speak for what I, what I do, but I, I don't think anybody, I hope that nobody's going to like listen to this and be like, God, she was the shittiest photographer I ever worked with. She made me feel so bad about myself. But I think it's just, you know, we're responsible for our own energy that we bring into the situation. And if you, and I know, you know, this too, like being in front of the camera, if you feel appreciated, you act appreciated. If you feel seen, then you bring your best self.
Claire: Absolutely.
Emma: And that's ultimately, ultimately my goal, like I'm probably never going to be Annie Leibovitz, but I can at least make somebody's experience not just tolerable, but enjoyable.
Claire: Are there any experiences as a plus size model specifically that you found were formative in your opinion of the career, or were either positive or negative or, you know, anything.
Emma: Oh, I mean, I mean, you know, New York and you know, what new Yorkers generally tend to look like and you know, what New York models tend to look like. So I would say I've, I've had some really tough castings, right? Where it's like, so-and-so is just looking for everyone, you know, they, they want to, which is kind of cool because like they're opening things up to plus-sized models instead of, you know, just straight size, which is cool. But there is truly like a caste system - C-A-S-T-E - within modeling. And and plus-sized models are absolutely positively at the bottom of it.
Claire: Are they really?
Emma: And I've felt that in really, really big ways, even on sets, like, honestly, I've, I've worked, I've worked with straight size models and, you know, we're usually the gimmick, right? The plus size you throw the plus size in to look more, um, open-minded to be more diverse. Right. Um, and there's always interesting language use. One of the things that tends to happen is stylists that work specifically on smaller bodies, see a size 12 and it's just huge to them. So they think it'll just fit anyone.
So I, I had probably one of my biggest jobs of my career and it was one of those things where I was like the "inclusive" choice, right? And I was, I think maybe a 16, a full 14, a 16 at the time. And all of the clothes that they pulled for me were a 12. So they literally had to cut everything in the back and then put a panel in to fit me. And mind you, there are 20 people on set, you know, between the art director, between the lighting director, you know, like all, all of these things. There are all these people that I don't know. And in the back of my head, I was like, I'm too fucking fat. For the clothes that they picked for me, like, I, I, that was not not in my head.
And it was so hard to shake because it's just this reality of like, once again, not even being thought of, it would be an active choice to dislike me, but to not even think of me. It's so painful and so hurtful. And I can only imagine what people in other like, yeah, I can't imagine what it's like to be a Black woman on set and like sit in that makeup chair and somebody have no fucking idea what to do with their hair. Like, it's just, that's the thing is like, everything about fashion is so built on being exclusive almost to the point that it's like deliberately exclusionary.
Is that a word exclusionary? That like that is that it seems like an actual choice to make anybody that strays from the norm feel unwelcomed. In New York in particular. New York was really, really hard for me and coming to Chicago, the market is so different. Like models here are like a size four, right?
The sample size is like a size four versus a zero. And once again, no shame on anybody's body however it is naturally or however they feel, but like it's amazing how much happier people are when they can eat. And, and you see that energetically and you can feel it onset like actually sitting and having lunch, you know, a lunch break with people and like them not being terrified to eat.
Like I still see it with male models because their expectations are unreal. Like, like I remember I was shooting something and it was Father's Day on set. And I had, I was on a different set, but it was just all of these gorgeous men. And there was a dude that was like doing sit-ups in the corner and had like a, like four gallon thing of water and was just like chugging it.
And then all the guys were eating, like, you know, salads. And I'm like here eating like pasta. And I understand that this seems, like, fake. Like how funny it is. Like, it seems like such a gimmick, but it truly was. And I think there's so much pressure, there's so much pressure for, for women already to be perfect.
But then to be put into - and mind you, I'm not in this industry on accident, right. I chose to be a part of it. But there's such a difficult, there's no separation for me, right. Because my body is my work. So when I'm not good enough for work, I also feel like my body's not good enough. That's the worst thing to admit, but it's true.
Like my, my, my worst self, my lowest self feels that. My highest self knows that I'm hired because I bring something, right? And that my body is a bonus. But when I am upset or like when something's not going well, or when I'm on set and all the samples are four sizes smaller than what they're supposed to be.
It can be really hard to break down the differences of, you know, I don't have an office job and my body has nothing to do with whether or not I would be a good accountant. It just doesn't. So factoring that in factoring in that I am getting older and that the industry is completely different. I think it's the same thing with acting as well as like, you have people that can come in and are undercutting everyone, cause they just want to work.
So we have models that are like, yeah, I will shoot for nine hours and you can pay me $350. And I'm like, bitch, that wasn't even like, like my hotels used to cost $350, like I'm not going to - Amazon is like $500 for an eight hour day.
Claire: Wow.
Emma: That's Amazon. Why would I be surprised? But you know what I mean? So, yeah. I mean, once again, I've gone off the rails, but there are so many opportunities and I'm sure you felt them as well, to be greatly disrespected on set. Whether it's an offhand compliment of, like we said before, oh, your face is so pretty or, oh, that sweater actually looks really good on you. Or, oh, wow, that, that makeup really opened your eyes. Or, you know, something like that. It's like, it's that passive aggressive bullshit. And it really, I think, we all know, you have to have really fucking thick skin to be told no all the time and that can't be understated. And you really can only hear that so many times before you have to feel it yourself.
Claire: Sure, absolutely.
Emma: So I think it, it, so massively comes down to kind of what I was touching on before of like creating your own side projects. Finding your own creative joy. And it's not even just about keeping busy, it's about not focusing on how many calls you're not getting, and how many kinds of things you're not being asked to go to. Cuz that can just eat you alive, right?
Claire: When you have days like that, when you're at your lowest, whether it's on set and you've just experienced some kind of disrespect, or you're just not booking, you're just not getting, you know, stuff. What do you do to motivate you? What do you do to give you, you know, to find that strength, to keep, yeah. What motivates you to keep going or to find something new?
Emma: I have absolutely positively lost so much motivation this year. Right? Like, I feel like the, the mental Olympics of just like staying alive right now. I mean, very honestly, especially somebody that lives alone, it has been incredibly challenging.
Claire: I can only imagine.
Well, you have two little kids. That's my own "I can only imagine."
Claire: And a husband.
Emma: There's no winning, like nobody's winning except for billionaires right now. So, you know, for me this time, last year, it's, it's always doing something active, right? Like I either need to like utilize parts of my brain, you know, whether that's like playing cards to, you know, re-activate parts of my brain that I'm, you know, killing as I, you know, watch six hours of something on TV.
But I think, I think the biggest thing is staying true to like things that bring me joy that have nothing to do with what I do for a living. So if that's cooking or and even like doing photography that doesn't have to do with modeling, like, you know, like going on a walk and like falling back in love with the city that I, that I adore, you know, there's so many things that I find joy in, that I sometimes just need to be reminded of. And I think that's why those low days come, you know, it's like, it's like, you're still a human and yeah, life is really hard, but it can also be really beautiful. So I can't tell you that it's the same thing every time. But I can tell you that it has been a lot more this year. Right? I think all of us can talk about that sort of mental health blow. That we've all that we've all taken.
Claire: Absolutely. Absolutely
Emma: But yeah, I mean also talking to other people, you know, talking to other people and knowing that, it's not like I love the idea of like misery loves company. I don't think that's healthy, right?
Like, yeah. Like how many more times we talk about how much it sucks. But it is really, really, really helpful for me, you know, either whether it's therapy, whether it's like, you know, reading authors that I really like or listening to podcasts or having conversations with people I care about. It's so important to know that this is temporary.
It feels like forever. It feels like it's been forever. It feels like it's going to be forever. But we existed before this and we will exist after this. And if there's anything that can be done, hopefully we are all better people on the other side of it. And being reminded of, of the things that matter, which are not me booking a target commercial, you know. Like the things that actually matter, family, friends, civil rights, like who our fucking president is like. There's so much more that is deserving of that energy. And, and that's where I try to place a lot of my focus when I, when I have bad days. Also some days I don't wake up until like noon. So like, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm a role model.
Claire: Girl, if I could tell you the last day, the last time I woke up at noon...yeah. That sounds divine.
Claire: Where do you see yourself in five years.
Emma: Oh my God. I love that you asked me that question.
Claire: Good, because it always feels like an awkward interview question. And I don't want anybody to feel that, but it's true. I want to know.
Emma: Claire. Nobody has asked me that in a decade. I have been asked that question at least a dozen times in the past week - where do you want to be in five years? And it is not a great answer, but, honest to God. I just want to make it through 2020. I do not have the fortitude or the foresight right now to, to think about anything other than survival. I know that sounds, like, sad. Like, it sounds pretty dire. But for somebody who is entirely independent contractor, who can't go to castings, is not getting self-tapes - all my skinny friends that are, you know, that are actors are like, they're doing like five self-tapes a day. And I'm like, I don't have anything else to do. Just like, let me put myself on film.
Claire: Yeah. I think I get one a month. Maybe
Emma: It's just really hard. Cause I, I honestly feel a bit like I've been forced into retirement. So I think it's, it's just a reality for me that I'm not, I'm not just mourning the fact that 300,000 people have died, which should be the first thing that is brought up about this pandemic. I know, yeah, like feel bad for me that I live in a awesome loft in Chicago while 300,000 people have lost their lives. Like there's no comparison. I absolutely want to make that clear. This is the thin part. Right? You can make it through thick and thin. Last year was very thick and very good, which is the only way that I can make it through thin, but I have very very real questions about whether or not I'm ever going to be able to get back to where it was before the pandemic. Especially since I'm such a commercial model. All these department stores are closing left and right. And those are my meal tickets. Does this mean I am depressed? Yes, but it also means that I am completely reevaluating my own abilities in a very, very empowering way.
Claire: Great.
Emma: It's not the end of the world. It fucking feels like it. But it's not, and there is, there's hope to be found, and I would rather be pragmatic, right? I would rather prepare for the worst and hope for the absolute best. And I'm young, I'm healthy-ish. Both -ish, young-ish. And I know, I know that there's still so much to be had and I, and I have so much hope that our industries continue to evolve and make space for everyone.
Emma: I will probably soon be in another category, which is, you know, the, what mid thirties category, right? Which is its own way of also slimming down what is available to plus-size bodies. But I'm feeling optimistic. Yeah. I'm like depressed, but also optimistic.
Claire: Well, I think that's important to give yourself the space to be depressed and acknowledge that you're depressed because this is, like, no shit we've ever gone through before. So of course it's affecting people. Of course, it's going to - I mean, like, if you weren't depressed, I'd be, I'd think there was something wrong with you. And not that everybody should go be depressed, but it, you know, it's, it's, it makes logical sense.
Emma: I think, you know, if you'd have asked me in may or June to do this podcast, I'd be like, I have nothing to contribute. Right. Like I have nothing, I just am in pure survival mode and am scared. I mean, I have extreme anxiety. So when you throw on just like, you know, I live in an apartment building with 60 other units. Every time I would leave my apartment, you know, and especially when we didn't know enough about it. And, and I have to say there was a switch and I don't know if it was just also with the change of weather, but there's so much to be said about taking the time to get to know yourself more.
And I never really thought that I wasn't somebody that wasn't in touch, but especially with what's going on with, with Black Lives Matter, it's just so clear that our issues are so much bigger than me worrying about booking a Home Depot commercial. Like it's, it's a shift that has been so important I think for us as a nation as well is, it's nice to not just think about myself.
Claire: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, no, no, I get it. I mean, and, and yeah, I mean, you do have to kind of take a step back and be like, okay. Yeah, let's have, let's have some perspective in this because things are a lot worse for a large swath of people. And right now we need to help. We need to support. It's not about us, like right now. It's the only thing that is about us is that we need to do a lot of fucking work. And we need to acknowledge that for sure.
Emma: And I think part of that acknowledgement is also understanding, cause I - God, I'm such like a guilt driven person. So it's like that feeling of like, oh, am I doing enough? Can I do enough? And then being like, oh, well it was bad for me, but it's a million times worse for somebody else. I think it's also really important to understand that like the best way to help other people is to fix yourself first.
Claire: Yeah, absolutely.
Emma: And so it's all kind of culminated in, as shitty as a year it's been, I think we're all becoming better people and that's probably what the basis of my hope is. And I hope that transcends every aspect of our society, you know. Be it equity in, in the workplace, be it diversity, um, actually happening in Hollywood. Be it just fucking getting to know your neighbor. Like, we're all human and it, and it's, it's like the shittiest lesson, but it's so necessary. Like it just sucks.
Claire: Thank you so much. This has been honestly, a joy to like, get to know you a little, and to get to hear your, your voice. It was really, really, really lovely. And, you gave me a lot to work with. A lot, a lot, a lot. So thank you so much.
Emma: No, I super appreciate that you're having these conversations, and I really hope that what I say resonates with people. But I really, really hope that you get to have more conversations with people that really need to be heard. And it sounds like that is something that's happening and that's, I'm just excited to be a part of it.
This episode's call to action is threefold because Emma feels strongly about the following three organizations. The first is The Loveland Foundation, which is an effort to bring opportunity and healing to communities of color, and especially to black women and girls through fellowships, residency programs, listening tours, and more, they ultimately hope to contribute to both the empowerment and the liberation of the communities they serve. Their website is thelovelandfoundation.org.
The second organization is Healthy Hood Chicago, which is a community-based non-profit organization based in the Pilsen neighborhood of Chicago. Healthy Hood was established to provide affordable programming and resources that elevate the mind, body and conscience as means to combat the current 20 year life expectancy gap between underserved communities and high income communities in the Chicago land area and around the country. Their website is healthyhoodchi.com.
And finally, the Brave Space Alliance, which is the first black-led, trans-led LGBTQ+ center located on the south side of Chicago, which is dedicated to creating and providing affirming culturally competent for-us/by-us resources, programming, and services for LGBTQ+ individuals on the south and west sides of the city of Chicago. They strive to empower embolden and educate each other through mutual aid, knowledge sharing and the creation of community-sourced resources as they build toward the liberation of all oppressed peoples. Their website is bravespacealliance.org.
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Big Bones, Thick Skin. Thanks and love to Emma Meyer for sharing herself with us. Big thanks also to Eric Backus for our amazing music, Meredith Montgomery for the incredible BBTS artwork, and Amilia Driscoll from Summit Podcasting for her help with editing. Help us out and subscribe for more honest, thought-provoking, and occasionally funny conversations with me and my guests.
And thanks for listening to Big Bones, Thick Skin.