Actor and writer Jen Bosworth-Ramirez talks to us about her experiences with weight stigma both in entertainment and within her family. With humor and honesty, she tells us why you need to have more than acting in your life.
02/23/2022
Big Bones, Thick Skin
Episode 5 - Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Jen-Bosworth-Ramirez is a writer and an actor from Chicago who now lives in Los Angeles. In this episode, Jen talks about the impact her mother and family had on her feelings about being in a bigger body, how she wound up auditioning for theater school, how she handles the dreaded costumer requests for our clothing sizes, working as Nicolas Cage's assistant, her admiration for Sam Irby and Kirsten Fitzgerald, and her production company Undeniable, Ink., and her podcast "I Survived Theater School".
Calls to Action:
Latino Union of Chicago
latinounion.org
Undeniable, Ink. - https://www.undeniablewriters.com/
Edited by Amelia Driscoll at Summit Podcasting - https://summitpodcasting.com/
Music by Eric Backus - https://www.ericbackus.com/
Artwork by Meredith Montgomery - https://www.meredithmontgomery.design/
Claire: My guest this episode is a kick-ass actor and writer who I met in Chicago, who is now located in Los Angeles. She's actually one of the pivotal players in my creating this podcast, even though she doesn't know it, as she was one of the first plus-size actresses I spoke with about creating a fat actress community.
Along with her writing partner, she's created a multimedia production company called Undeniable, Ink - with a K - which was inspired by a need for more uncompromising stories told from women's perspectives. They've written an original television series, two original screenplays, two original stage plays, countless monologues - one for me - sketches, one acts, and eulogies. You can check them out at undeniablewriters.com. Please join my conversation with the wonderful Jen Bosworth-Ramirez.
When we first started talking and our friendship really took off was when we were talking about getting a group of like-minded, like-bodied, like-identifying people together, specifically actresses...
Jen: Totally...
Claire: ...that are not thin. And just having a community in and of itself, to support each other and lift each other up and, like, vent when we need to vent, because there's plenty to vent about.
Jen: That is true. That is true.
Claire: So that, when, like, Dana started doing her podcast and all these other people started talking about podcasts, like I had no interest until I was like, wait a minute. There's a need for this. There are people out there that at least - and at the very least it's for my own selfish reasons and to find my own voice and to talk about my experiences.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
Claire: And and I'm only trying to talk to people that kind of self-identify.
Jen: Sure.
Claire: And then, ultimately I hope to open it up to other communities that feel marginalized and somehow bear, the brunt of some toxic casting practices.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And I think for podcasts sake, if you go, my looking at it as is, if you go for what brings you that, what has juice for you? I don't think you can go wrong because that means, chances are it has juice for other people. But even if it's a smaller number than you might think, or whatever are still going to be people that benefit that need to hear.
Claire: I feel, and at the very least it's something for me to do, where I'm not just sitting around waiting for someone to write something or, yeah.
Jen: What happened, what's happening Chicago-wise, auditioning, is everything just shut again?
Claire: It's very, it's hard to tell because you only see what your specific type and all of that. So it's pretty slow. Theater, I think at the beginning of the pandemic, theater was more trying to at least continue with self-tapes, even though they could only take the casting process so far. It seems most of the stuff is commercial, clearly, cause that never stops. But it's definitely not at the pace that it was at all, and they have to be incredibly careful making sure everybody knows the specs and the COVID related regulations that they're going to adhere to.
Jen: So that makes sense. Yeah.
Claire: So I don't see a lot of it, but that's okay. There's so much to handle in the world.
Jen: Yeah. And I think here in LA, it's been really busy for me, but it's also not been busy. Like auditions have been busy, but I haven't booked anything. And I think it's the same in terms of things probably get cast and then they get shut down and then they cast, and then they get shut down. So whatever, it gives me something to do self taping and I was fine. And also, it's not because I'm writing so much that I don't it's good to have something else to do. Other than that. That's what I would tell all other plus-size ladies is do something else besides act.
Claire: Yeah. Yeah. And why would you say that? Why would you say that? What makes you feel that way?
Jen: I think that making your own art, making my own art, whatever that means to me is essential in terms of not relying, like you said, not relying on someone to write something for me. And not waiting. That's what I would say. Stop waiting. Don't wait. And yeah, that's it.
Claire: You don't necessarily mean go be an accountant on top of it, unless that floats your boat.
Jen: If you're, if you love, if I would say, if someone came to me, like you are saying, Hey, why does it do that? I would say, yeah, I know that the casting world is changing. It's not catching up as fast as I would like. And so for me, that meant, okay why is that? And I said, oh, it starts with writing. So with television writing and film writing. So I said, okay, let me go be a television and film writer. Partially because of my frustration as a plus-size actress in Hollywood-land and also in, entertainment business in general, wherever I lived.
But partially I just really also love it. So it's I would say find something that you love to do. Maybe you don't love to do it as much as acting or maybe you do. And to do that. Yeah. Especially now. Especially now.
Claire: That's, a lot of people are I think taking this - it's not self-imposed, they don't have a lot of control over it - but they're taking this as a time to be like, okay, I kept asking for time and for a break from all this stuff, now let me figure this stuff out.
Jen: Yeah, and it doesn't look necessarily like we, any of us thought. So that time comes with other complications. There's obviously health concerns and we can't go anywhere and financial concerns cause we can't earn in this certain way. It is the mother of invention: necessity. And so I would never say, oh, it's been easy. But it has been at least for me a time of, figuring out as a woman, as a person, as a plus size actress, like what do I want to do ALSO? Also. It's an also. I would say it's a big also.
Claire: I think a lot of people mistakenly think that once they choose acting, that has to be it's all or nothing. And it's that's, that's one of the many things that is systemic in the way that we've been conditioned to be grateful for whatever we can get. Therefore, we cannot do anything else because you never, you don't want to take yourself out of the running.
Jen: Right. I think that's so true. And I also think there's this whole thing of when I went to acting conservatory, it was like, if you have something to fall back on, you will fall back. And it's, that to me is so ridiculous. No, it is really, and I think more probably plus size women have to do this is a "Yes, And" situation. It's yes, AND what else can I do? Yes, AND I can produce. Yes, AND I can write. Yes, AND I can do podcasts. Whatever it is, I would say "Yes, And" the crap out of your life right now.
Claire: Yeah, I think that's awesome. That is awesome. That's a really, that's really smart. So let's go back to, you mentioned that you went to grad school, to acting school. Tell me about that. Where did you go?
Jen: So I went to DePaul in Chicago, I went to the theater school at DePaul. I'm doing a podcast as well, which is crazy, called I Survived Theater School, with a theater school buddy of mine. And she and I have just been talking, obviously, about acting a lot and acting school. And so I grew up in Evanston, Illinois, and I was not the big actor. I was not a child actor. I was not in all the high school plays. I did like the comedy review. And then literally, I didn't know where I wanted to go to college. And I wanted to take a gap year and travel. And my mom was like, absolutely not.
She's an immigrant. And she was like, you will go to college. Education was like super important to her. So she was like, Nope, you will pick a college. And so I was like, okay. So literally, and this ties into your podcast theme. My best friend in high school was this thin, still is - she's not my best friend anymore, but she still is thin. She was the actress and everything, and she was gorgeous, still is. And so I thought she was going to she, her dream was to go to NYU. To go to acting school...
Claire: To Tisch?
Jen: She wound up going to Tisch. And so I thought she, that she knew where she wanted to go from when we were in high school. And she was just really worldly and, so I said, okay I think there was a part of me and I talk about this in my, actually my pitch for when I'm pitching scripts. When it's like about me and my personal pitch. I literally thought that if I went to acting school, I would become thin and really gorgeous. If you went there, that would turn it. You would, you could turn into that. So I just started applying to acting schools because she did. And I didn't - I got into Tisch. I can't even remember, but I didn't. Oh, you needed to pick a school within the school. Atlantic, and they asked me and I hadn't researched any of the schools and I just said, I have no idea.
So they were like, you don't know what you want to do. This is for serious actors, basically. So I got into NYU, but I didn't, it was very expensive. Then. Now, of course, it's crazier, but I didn't know. So I couldn't afford Tisch. And then I applied at California School of the Arts or CalArts, I got in and get didn't go. And then DePaul, the theater school, I don't even think I got scholarships, but I got financial aid from the government. And my mom and my parents said I could go there and they could afford it. So literally that's how I ended up at theater school. I must have been okay. In order to get, I'm not saying I was terrible, but in order like to not get cut, cuz they had a cut system, but also just to get in.
Claire: Did they really?
Jen: Oh, yeah. They cut half our class every year. It was the worst system. And we're talking a lot of, obviously in our podcast to people that have been cut also, because when we say we survived theater school, it has nothing to do with actually getting cut or not. It's just, like, you survive the experience at all. You went to theater school, right?
Claire: I've taken classes up the wazoo.
Jen: So anyway, I went to DePaul and I and I, it's interesting. I always - speaking of plus size. It's like, I grew up being really, my parents were really hard on me about my weight. So I think that my weight was "under control" in terms of being "thinner" until I was like, "This is crazy." You know what I mean? Until I was probably, until I was older. But there was always this thing of, the fear of, and it's this range, right? So plus-size is such a range.
Claire: Right!
Jen: It's, I commend you for doing a podcast on it. Cause it's such a range like there's, some people think they're plus size, and other people don't think they're plus size.
Claire: Right! Exactly. And at my thinnest, for me, it was really thin, but it was still quote unquote "plus-size" or chubby or whatever. And it's, yeah, it's subjective, but also not. It's crazy.
Jen: It's a very weird thing. So I grew up with that stigma. So my mom was from Colombia and my dad was Swedish and my, the Colombians were like highly concerned with - in my family, anyway. I don't know, I'm not gonna speak for all Colombian immigrants. But my family, that came to this country, my mom came when she was like 16 or 17 and, but they were highly concerned with weight, and --
Claire: Just in general, or with you?
Jen: Just in general! With everybody. They would, like, keep tab on appearances, but specifically weight. They would keep tabs on people's weight and, "Oh, he's gained weight." Or "She's lost so much weight. She looks great." My grandmother - this is hilarious. Was part, my grandmother was teeny. She was like when I say teeny, she was five foot, one maybe, or five feet. She was very five feet if she was. Just a small woman, but she always thought that she was quote "fat". And when she said, quote "fat", she meant it in a bad negative way, because the word is now being taken back by a lot of people. So she was part of this early Weight Watchers group called TOPS, which was called, Taking Off Pounds Successfully. And this was in the seventies and the eighties, and it probably still exists. So TOPS, and she was obsessed and she had these magnets on her refrigerator that said " A minute on the lips, a lifetime on the hips."
Claire: Oh my God.
Jen: And she was obsessed. So that is the kind of culture that I came from. And then, in my life, when I was thinnest, was when I was sickest, mentally. So, I didn't have like anorexia, and I wasn't bulemic. But I did have a period where I had intense anxiety and I couldn't eat. And so I, I got very thin, and of course my mother loved that. She couldn't see that I was like dying of anxiety.
Claire: So despite your appearance, otherwise, cuz I'm sure --
Jen: I looked terrible.
Claire: I'm sure it took a toll on you.
Jen: She loved it. She bought me clothes, she couldn't believe I was a size eight. She spent money on me. It was really. In some ways I'm glad that she's gone. She's dead. I always say that, but like for a lot of reasons, like when someone dies that has that you have a very complicated relationship with. There are good things about that person not being in your circle --
Claire: And influencing you and that, that presence. Yeah. Yeah.
Jen: It's total freedom. So I went, yeah, but I went to theater school and there, I think I just was like, oh, I did the thing that everybody did that I see on Facebook, which is I look back at pictures and I thought, oh my God, I was so fat, and whatever. And I say I say that in I thought I was bad, but I look back. And I'm like, oh, I wasn't. So I've had a very distorted view of what I look like and what other people look like actually, too. And I would never say, so anyway, I went to theater as school. That's what, that's how I ended up there. I graduated in, I took a year off in the middle to go study Shakespeare and work on Shakespeare on the east coast. At Shakespeare and Company. I got accepted to a program there. And so then I went, then I came back. I graduated from the theater school in 98.
Claire: Great. So what, so I know that you initially were thinking that going to theater school was going to solve your quote unquote "problem" of being plus size. What was your experience as a plus size person in theater school. And that could be at DePaul. That could be at Shakespeare and Company.
Jen: Oh Shakespeare and Company were great. They didn't care . And also they just, it was like a more the conservatory - look: I was like, at that time during my college years, maybe an in-between size. But definitely one of the larger people in the class. And I think that it was never mentioned, so I give them credit for that.
Claire: Because I have heard nightmare stories.
Jen: Yeah, well , like Carnegie Mellon, they used to weigh people. A friend of mine went to Carnegie Mellon. But yes, I was cast a lot as never an ingenue, that's the thing. I was always the old lady, the older woman, the more crony type, widow or something like that. So, I think that's how it played out. I was never the ingenue, but here's the thing. Like, I was so interested in being funny and probably some of that comes from being plus-sized too, but I was so interested in being funny and being, and loved comedy that like, I didn't - right - I didn't take it so personally then, in school, that I was playing the older roles, plus we were all young playing somewhat older roles. But I think it was, I think it was, when graduating and starting to work professionally that it became like, this is so crazy because I, my auditions were - so I graduated and got agents immediately. When you could multi-list in Chicago, I got five agents. I was --
Claire: Wow.
Jen: I worked, but I was never an ingenue. And I think that really bothered me until I just made peace with that.
Claire: What was that like? How did that make you feel at that time?
Jen: I just, I can tell you that it felt like; right, it felt like there was no place for me in the industry. And I felt like that in my family, too. So it was a very familiar, horrible, familiar feeling, but it wasn't a shock, but it was oh, this is more of the same, nothing changes. Which is very painful and also is very alienating. Even though, then later on you realize that everyone feels some version of this, but I think plus size women, especially, feel it in a way that is like really, so you turn against your own body and then you become competitive with other women. And yeah, it's interesting. It's a very interesting thing.
Claire: Yeah. I know that one of the - people ask actors, what is it that you love about acting? And a lot of times, and it's true for me sometimes, it's just getting out of your own self and exploring another person in another personality. And I really struggle with, or have struggled with the idea that my identity as a plus-sized person in reality, and my identity as an actor is also plus-size because it's been pointed out to me and I've been cast as the non-ingenue and all that. And there was really, there was a lot of overlap so that I didn't feel, like, for a long time - I won't say that recently. I feel like it's gotten I've changed in what I'm looking for, but I was never, I could never escape from the things about myself that I was told was a problem because whatever I would get cast as, it would be a role that would be considered less than beautiful, less than interesting, less than all of that stuff.
Jen: That is fascinating. I never thought about that, but that's exactly, I totally can identify with that. And so for me, what that did was, it was, it was really hard, but also what it gave me was, and I say this about my childhood as well, is it just gave me so much compassion for other people who maybe feel like they can't escape who they are. I think we are, I'll speak for myself: forced. I was forced to, whether I liked it or not, to rely on other things other than looks, right? So - not that other people rely on looks, but we're just, we can't, I couldn't. So it wasn't possible as an actor. It, I had to develop my compassion, my curiosity, my --
Claire: Sense of humor, I would imagine.
Jen: My sense of humor, my resilience, my perseverance, all those things I had to develop. And I developed, those from a very young age. And then, as an actor. I had to develop them again, like really develop them to work a room to, to be engaging. And so as hard and as grief-filled as my life has been, specifically around body. It has also been very freeing in some ways to finally - it's a pain in the butt - but to finally be able to say, oh, if I want to see, like you said it's me, I've changed. So if I want to see lasting change in this industry, I have to do something about it. And it's sucks. Because part of me is I shouldn't have to do this. We should just be normal human beings that don't see body size as a hindrance, as a weirdness, as a difference as a, or as a bad thing. But it's the way it is. And so that's really what brought me to Los Angeles in a lot of ways, was to really change the industry, right, from the ground up. And the only way I could think of to do that was by writing. Or show running, which is writing first, usually.
Claire: Oh, so is that...? Thank you. Because I never quite knew what show running was.
Jen: Me neither. So usually from my, I'm not, no, obviously no show-running expert, but from what I'm learning is that - so usually what happens is someone writes a show, right? And they, or starts as a writer, is either in a writer's room, working on a show or develops their own show and then slowly learns about the process of producing, and then gets their show, and then is able to run up their show and then runs other shows later. Or maybe they have multiple shows like David Fincher or someone else like that, that can... but yeah. So showrunning, if I want to, if I want to literally run the show, I have to write my way in, is through writing stories that highlight people with different body types, in a different way. Like write people in a different way.
And it's interesting, because a lot of people for years have said that you should write, you should... And I was like, that is such garbage. I don't want to do that. I want to act. But there comes a point where if I'm - right, I was complaining and if I'm miserable about auditions and if I'm miserable about the roles, then I have to write them.
Claire: Yeah. Or you have to stop complaining or find something else to do. Exactly.
Jen: Go work at Chase bank or whatever. No, it's just not my jam either, but I definitely feel like there was a put up or shut up, a internal thing that happened for me about four years ago that I was like, "Ooh". Or maybe the longer, that I was like, okay, I see what's happening here. If I'm not happy in this industry as an actor, it's my job to do something, especially for generations of women that are coming behind me.
Claire: I think what's really interesting, and you didn't say this in so many words, but you, it seems, did the internal inventory and about how you are in the world and how you are in the industry. And instead of trying to change yourself to fit the industry, you're recognizing that it's not you that needs to change. It's the system that needs to change.
Jen: Yeah.
Claire: Yeah. And that's the only way that you can chart that path for the people behind you.
Jen: Right. It is an inside job. Like, people always say that. And so it can't be - well, it can. You could lose weight and then work a lot. There's people, I'm recently interested in the Rebel Wilson journey. You know, she's lost a bunch of weight.
Claire: Ooh. Yeah. On this, what seems to be a very extreme...regimen.
Jen: Yeah, and, okay. I definitely feel, I'm curious about people and not pegging people also as a Fat Champion who don't want to be that - and let them change, let her do whatever she wants. They don't speak for everybody. And yet I don't know what the impetus was for her change. But I do know for me, every time I've tried to mold into a person that, I think, is more castable, I think is more...it hasn't worked out well for me. And it's always said, until it's - now I hike and I do this and I do that. But the, I do that because I like doing those things...
Claire: Right. Because that part of your life, as opposed to...
Jen: It's part of my lifestyle, as opposed to, I'm trying to get thin. I'm not, but it's interesting because I don't want to fault people, for having a massive weight loss.
Claire: No. We all have our journeys. We all have, and you don't, we don't know where these people are coming from, what the - again - what the impetus is. And it's, part of it is the judgment, and so who are we to judge?
Jen: And who are we to judge? And also everyone, you said everyone has to define for themselves, inside, what is okay and what is not okay. And what is important. What's not important. And it's interesting. It's just super interesting to look - I also did a bunch of, I worked at PR casting and being on the other side of that. I was never the bigwig or anything like that, but I did a lot of - I did some session running and I also did some outreach for projects, and it's just, for me, the systemic change has to happen from the writing on up. Because unless you're going to infiltrate an advertising agency and try to get advertising commercials is a different story...
Claire: I think that's one of the last things to...
Jen: Probably one of the last things to go. And it's not, it doesn't interest me. But, like, television and film - that interests me. So in my journey, I just realized that yeah, right, for me, that's where it starts for me. Is to write characters whose bodies look like all different kinds of things. And there is not the main point of the story is how to get the fat person, unless they want to be and that's part of the, but not as a gimmick and not as a, some kind of prize. Some kind of, "Oh, look, she's happy now cuz..."
Claire: Or judgment.
Jen: Right. And she's happy now that she's thin. And she was so sad when she was fat. And that's the whole point of the story. I just, that doesn't interest me. That's boring.
Claire: No. And it's been done and it's done its harm, and now it needs to be retired.
Jen: I think so. It's an old trope. Yeah, it's a very old trope.
Claire: Absolutely. I do want to pivot slightly because you talked about your writing, which I think is, yes, I completely agree. And thank God for you and people like you that are doing this, and not just for me and my body, but for everybody's bodies. But I know that you wrote and performed your own show.
Jen: I did!
Claire: How long ago was that? And tell us about it.
Jen: OK, so I, my journey was partially geographical of when I left Chicago in 2000 to move to LA, I thought I was gonna be an actor. And I had done some television and film, and in Chicago after I graduated in 98, so I moved to LA, like everybody from my class and we were trying to be famous actors. But I literally moved here and I got a job at a bookstore that I loved. And I stopped acting. I just stopped. I didn't even pursue agencies. I was like really needing to find myself. And I had never lived away from home before. And so I really immersed myself in this, it was a metaphysical bookstore. It was like this, it doesn't exist. They tore it down or they sold it, but it was around since 68 and Shirley McClain, all the famous people would come in there, I met some great people. I met Prince, I met Alanis Morissette that I met Madonna. So we worked in this bookstore, I worked in this bookstore. That was enough. And then I was not, I was not making enough. It was enough emotionally. And so then I ended up working for Nicholas Cage's production company from 2001 to 2006. And during that time I didn't act either. I was like an a full-time assistant basically to him and his producing partner. And I, it was wild and great. It was fun and sad and all the things. But during that time I started writing. Cause I was like, some of this stuff is wild and not even Nic stuff, like just stuff in the industry, just life stuff.
And so I started writing and then my dad, unfortunately in Chicago got sick, he got addicted to painkillers and he, I came home. I was also really burnt out and I got, I went back to Chicago and he passed away while I was there. And then I stayed and fell in love. And then my - this is so crazy, my, my future husband, he was my, my boyfriend. He got cancer. He's fine. But then my mom got cancer and then she, and I took care of her as she passed away. My show I wrote, it was called "Why Not Me: Love, Cancer, and Jack White", because I started to have these crazy reoccurring dreams about Jack White.
Claire: Oh my God.
Jen: Or being romantically involved with him during this time. It was pretty amazing.
Claire: I've heard a lot worse. That doesn't sound too bad to me.
Jen: It was weird, but it wasn't. So the show was an hour solo show about, really about my journey as a daughter, taking care of people who are dying, and also about Hollywood, and also about the desire to really feel at home in your own skin. And so that show I wrote and I, in 2012, it had two runs in Chicago and then it went to New York.
Claire: Wow.
Jen: As part of the Fringe Festival. Then it came back to Chicago, I think, for one more year and then it just got - it's like anything, you outgrow your solo show. So I would like, I have new solo shows if I wanted to do that, if anyone would like to see them, we'll do them one day. But, the solo show was really about being seen, about telling my story as a daughter, as an actor, as an assistant to a movie star, but also just figuring out what it takes to feel at home and to live your dream of being an artist. And that was really my re-entry because when my dad got sick and died, I went back to school. I have a Master's in Counseling Psych. I know, it's crazy. I have a, I was a therapist for five years. And then when my mom die, she said, you're an - she, before she died, she told me, you're an artist. You need to be an artist. You need to quit your job as a therapist. If that's what you want to do, and I'm leaving you a little bit of money, so go do that.
And so that's what I did. And I did a show and then that show led back to a more traditional acting career and an agent and stuff like that. But, I really, in 2012, my vision was just to do this show as an homage to my mom and myself and Chicago and LA, as like a love letter and then move, and then go back to being a therapist. But it didn't work out.
Claire: That's amazing!
Jen: I never went back. Although now on this podcast, my podcast partner and I are both therapists backgrounds. So it turns out to being a little bit of a therapy session.
Claire: And boy. I would imagine anyone that's gone through any iota of theater school needs a therapist.
Jen: Yes. A conservatory? You are right on sister. Right on. So that's my solo show. Yeah, that was my solo show. It was a real, a real coming out party in terms of, oh yeah, this is me. I'm a storyteller, I'm an artist. This is what I look like. And this is who, this is, yeah, this is me. Yeah. That's what it was. It was just coming out to: yeah, I'm an artist. This is what I do. I tell stories. It may take separate, different forms, but yeah.
Claire: Yeah. It doesn't have to be exclusive for sure.
Jen: So that was the solo show. And I, I think about doing another solo show, but I think, wow, it's just financially real crazy. And I made $0 on that show.
Claire: And unless you have something that you absolutely want to communicate to the world and it sounds like you did, whether, whether you know it or not, and in a round about way, but also finding your voice and finding yourself and finding, like you said, being comfortable in your own skin. That's worth, it's worth the money. People spend a lot more on therapy to get, to not even get close to.
Jen: That's true. And I had a great, I had a friend who was a director that said, I want to direct it and you're going to do it and she was really instrumental in that. So that was really cool.
Claire: What a gift for and from your mom.
Jen: Yeah, my mom was pretty cool. She was really hard to live with a lot of times, but she was really amazing. She's one of those people that like. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't really have a judgment about it, but like when she got sick, she really changed. Like she became like way more - and I probably did too - way more open, way more accepting, way more - "Oh my gosh, life is not forever". So she became, she mellowed out. I like to say, when she got sick, when she got the first cancer diagnosis in 2008, she mellowed out, which was great for our relationship. Cause it would be really, really, really hard to take care of someone, and people do it all the time. It's like criticizing you the whole time about your weight.
You'd be like, dude stop, but she mellowed out about it. And I think she was able to look past the physical appearance of people when her physical appearance started changing. So she was no longer the stunner because of the, or in the traditional way, because of the cancer. I think it gave her a perspective of oh, to look - cause her motto, my mother's motto literally was "It's better to look good than to feel good". Like, she would say that.
Claire: Really. Literally.
Jen: And so when she got cancer, I think it shifted, she was like, wait a second. This isn't. Oh no. If you don't feel good, it doesn't matter. It sort of doesn't matter that much what you look like. And I think it took that for her to see that. She said, "We get what we get when we get it".
Claire: At least you have that, at least you have that, especially as a lasting kind of memory.
Jen: Yeah. It wasn't horrible.
Claire: So let's, you mentioned that, your mom and your grandma and your Colombian side of your family was very focused on weight. And you say, and you mentioned, when you were in theater school that you noticed that you were not getting the ingenue roles, but it wasn't really didn't really bother you, but was there a time where you realized, like I had a moment and I was very young, I've been taking acting classes.
Claire: Most of my life, my parents were actors. They met at an audition. They stopped acting when I was really young, cause they needed to pay bills in New York city. And then the I'm not even going to say what decade. And, but it was somehow instilled in me and I wanted to learn. So I would take all kinds of acting classes as a kid and whatever.
Jen: Anyway, And I remember having this class I was a teenager. I was in high school and I was in a class with some of my friends and I just looked forward to it all the time. It was just, it was finally my moment to like, not have to worry about Claire and the way Claire is representing herself in the world.
I don't know. It was just very - there was a lot of liberation to it, and we only did like improv and all of that stuff, but my teacher was just this wonderful, sweet, nurturing, supportive, lovely woman with this beautiful voice and loved me, was just super, super supportive of me. And I didn't have anybody like that in my life or in acting.
And so I loved going to this class and I remember doing a scene with someone and. I think for a very rare moment, just letting it all out, just posing it all of my emotions, not worrying about how I looked and what people were thinking of me and we finished and I was so proud of myself and just wow, this might be something, this might be something I can do.
And I remember her going, Claire, you could be a leading lady, if you just lost weight. Wow. In front of the entire class and how it was. I was probably like 14, 15. And it was just like, I remember it being in my head like, ah, there it is the exception. This is why I won't be able to do any of the things that I want to do because I'm too big. And that's all that people and that's all that matters clearly.
I think that's horrifying and that's so typical of what plus size teens...
Claire: Exactly.
Jen: ...and actors hear. I, my family was so hard on me and so, I would say sometimes, it's just mean and straight up verbally abusive about my weight, that I, that kind of thing. I never put myself out there in that way. I may have been acting it's weird. I may, I think I was not a good actor. Not because I didn't try, but because I didn't put myself out there like that because I was afraid to put myself out there for fear the teacher would point out my weight. So you did the brave thing.
So I think, you were in the moment and really going for it. I never went for it. So if you don't go for it, right, you don't risk as much feedback. So then they can focus on the acting and say, oh you didn't really go for it. You're holding back. And I think you're right. I think that the reason that I probably didn't go for it was for fear of that, because I had witnessed that happening to me, with my family. So in my family, whenever you got too it, it was like, if you ever were too happy or let yourself go to much that - let's just to recap: I think that I held back so much that criticism that I got could be about the body. Does that make sense? So then they would have to pick on the "acting", and I think that was a defense mechanism. So I was taught very young to not put myself out there for fear of being picked on. So why I picked acting, I must've subconsciously wanted to work this out, but I think that moment that you had was so brilliant in that class.
I'm so sad that she said that to you and it makes me want to throttle her. And I know that you didn't "mean it". I know that she wasn't a "mean" person, but I don't care. I just I, how unfortunate that was, how unfair and unfortunate.
Claire: Yeah. And agreed. And I don't hold that against her because I do know that's, she wasn't trying to hurt me. She was just speaking of the reality of the time or speaking to it. Looking back, I definitely can recognize that made me withdraw again and not expose myself anymore.
Jen: Of course! Who wants to expose themselves to that? That's horrifying; the shame is unbelievable. So, I think I've done that. I've done that, and until recently, for my whole life. That holding back. To avoid being told, oh, if you just, because I, my mom said that all the time. "You'd be so pretty, if you lost weight". Then I'm not gonna put myself out there. So I will hide. And it's a wonder, that's why I wanted to, I don't know how I got into acting. I dunno how I got into theater school. I don't know how I ever got cast in anything. Not because I was terrible, but because I wasn't really present and vulnerable. I am now. Now I do, because I'm like, who cares? I'll do something else if I'm not going to, if I'm not going to be vulnerable and be present to the best of my ability during acting, I'll do something else. It's crazy. But I've had moments of, I'm sure I know people have said some stuff about my weight in terms of in the acting world, they usually say it behind their backs now but I know that the fear is always there.
The fear of someone saying something is always there. So whether or not they actually say it is inconsequential sometimes. Cause it's oh, they'll just, and that's how I felt. That's how I felt my whole life until, and of course it still comes and goes, but now I'm like, dude, I am 45 years old. I will do - and I am - something else. But also if I choose to act, I'm not going to be, I'm gonna not be ashamed. Yeah. I'm not going to be ashamed of that, of my body all the time. I can't, it's too much work. If I'm going to do that, I'll just do something else. Cause I can't, it's too tiring. Or change or make a change. Whether that's going on a crash, some people go to crash diet. Some people go on a not-crash diet. Look, it's all valid. But I just I think that the fear of happening to me and I'm sure it happened to me and I blocked it out, but I think the fear for me was greater than the thing that actually happened.
So I just never went for it because we were told, oh if you're, if example. So if I had been okay, so if I had been in that class, even if I had been the one she's talking to, people see that! And they go, "I don't want it to happen to say to me what she says, Claire. So I a) don't put myself out there, b) I'll drop out of this class, whatever it is. You know what I mean?
Claire: Uh-huh. And I'm going to go home and hide in my room and eat some donuts because that's my only comfort at this point. Yeah.
Jen: It's embarrassing. It's shame, it's shame-inducing. It's brings up so much shame. She was inadvertently shaming.
Claire: Oh, God. Yeah.
Jen: In a way that was just so painful. And that has happened to me. But I think, unfortunately it happened to me hugely when I was very young, from my own family. So it wasn't the acting world that did me in.
Claire: It was already there.
Jen: It was already there.
Claire: It was already there.
Jen: I think from like, when I was like seven, my mom was like, you gotta stop. You gotta stop. You gotta, I remember she bought me a mug, this is, and it's like real gross. She bought me a mug that said, when I was like, eight, the mug said, "I'm not overweight. I'm under tall."
Claire: Oh my God. I'm not judging her.
Jen: What I'm saying is where were the other adults that didn't say to my mom, "What are you doing? You're ruining...".Or my father, like...
Claire: Yeah, where was your dad?
Jen: Right. And the thing is, my father was six foot, 10, six foot nine, sorry, six foot nine. He's huge. And a big guy. And he was a basketball player. I think my father was just happy I was getting picked on and not him. Families are very disturbing.
Claire: Oh, wow.
Jen: Families are a disturbing place to grow up in. And so I think that's what was going on with my dad. But yeah. So I got it really young. So the fact that I went to acting school at all is, was the dumbest thing I could probably have done. But it also, it was also a blast. I had a blast in college and on many levels. And then I think working for a movie star and witnessing the madness that was that, I sort of, I got perspective of what's important and what's not. And, look, acting is a very, if you can do what you did in that class, when you're acting, I think then by all means that you should be acting all the time as your job. I really do. If you can be that, if you can let it go more times than not, right? And go for it? That you're in the right field. I can do that, I would say, on set, and I work, it's funny. It's people are like, oh, you never work. No, I go to set. I'm just terrified of that. Terrified.
Claire: Of what?
Jen: Of, like, making a mistake. I was probably scared of the shame. It's the shame, whether it's body-related or smarts-related - the shame, the fear of the embarrassing myself. So I've worked through a lot of it, but I'm still afraid. So when I'm go to set, it takes me a lot of work to get to the point - I don't even know if I ever get there - where I'm, I've done it on stage, but maybe a lot of time to get to the point where I can really let go and be in the moment and experienced all that. The emotion. It's hard on set too, cause you got a million other things going on. But, even in theater I haven't done that lately. So that's, and I feel when I'm writing, I have no fear. So that's not true. I fear that it's going to suck, but then I get over that I think, oh my God, there's so much other poorly written stuff that gets made. So shut up and get writing. But acting's so personal. It's so much it's our body is out there.
Claire: We're on display. Absolutely. And there's no getting around it. The costumes, there's no getting around it. It's still you out there.
Jen: That was the other thing I was just going to mention. Cause I was thinking about. Now, what I do is, when I'm called from a costumer night before I will say, listen to me. I literally say I am built like a rugby player with a gut.
Claire: Jen!
Jen: But I don't care. And it doesn't hurt. I'm like, because what is more painful is to show up on set and have them try to get me into size 12s. I'm lik, no. It's not gonna happen. So I am very explicit because I'm protecting myself from, I'm already scared as hell when I'm on set, right? Why am I going to put myself through the hell that is costume and wardrobe? No, I am very honest. And I give them my exact measurements and I don't mess around. I don't pretend. And they're like, oh, you're very forward. I'm like, listen, I don't need any trouble because, you know what's gonna happen is I will burst into tears if you try to make me get into a size 12. I will die. So stop, it's not happening. I have to be proactive.
And I, this is what I tell all people that ask me. I'm like, don't lie about your sizes. If you don't want a whole kerfuffle on set. Be honest and own it because if not it's another opportunity for shame to rear its ugly head. And you don't need that when you're on set.
Claire: Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because very similarly, when we go on auditions and I'll just use PR as an example, but it's typical of all the casting houses, you have to sign in and usually have an info sheet. And on that info sheet, they ask you for your height and weight, and they ask you for your sizes, then it goes to like your hat size, and you're like, I don't freaking know. Yeah. But I always get to that and I am like, I freeze. Cause I'm like, what do I do? I, do I ...? Do I go over? Do I go under, what? And and I have friends that are not considered plus sized, who will be the first ones to say, I don't even fill it out. I don't fill it out. It's none of their business. They'll see when I go to the costume people and I'm like, I love that you do that, but I don't have that luxury either.
Jen: Yeah, exactly. And I am not setting myself up for any more criticism than I have already received about the way I look. So thank you very much, but no, thank you. I tell the truth. I put everything down. That way they can't say, "Oh, you said". Nope, it's right there. And I'm also not going to buy into the mass delusion that somehow if you don't say that it's not happening --
Claire: Right - that it doesn't exist.
Jen: It's not true! I'm not going to buy into that. I talk a lot with my writing partner about, we talk about a lot of, we're writing a story, a new series about a cult figure, and we're writing about a mass delusion and how we're not, I'm not going to participate in the mass delusion that certain bodies are better bodies than other bodies. I'm not going to do it.
Claire: Exactly.
Jen: I'm not to do it anymore.
Claire: Good. Good. Is there anyone that you feel embodies, both physically and emotionally, mentally the kind of strong, empowered actor or person.
Jen: You know who comes to mind? It's really interesting. Interesting. And she's local. So it's not a movie star. It's a Kirs Fitzgerald. So from A Red Orchid?
Claire: Yeah.
Jen: She, I don't know how she considers herself, but I consider herself stunning. Beautiful, strong, but also one of the most unapologetically, powerful performers that I've ever seen in my life. I'm 45, seen a lot of people. So I would say Kirs is amazing. On a, and I don't have a lot of acting heroes.
I just, my heroes are like, I love, the guy who wrote Mind Hunter book about serial killers, John, you know. I love, I have weird heroes. But in terms of acting and in terms of female-identifying, and in terms of someone who's bigger-bodied, that is someone that I think is, I love her, with a passion. And I've worked with her and she's amazing.
And I just think that she embodies strength and grace and also acting chops. Like I would never, I watch her work and I'm like, oh my God, she's just a marvelous actor. So that's someone that I'm like, oh yeah, that's - gimme Kirs Fitzgerald any day of the week. I'll watch her do anything. I understudies her and I was just like, I was like--
Claire: Did you???
Jen: Yeah, at Red Orchid, and I was like, "This is the greatest thing!" Yeah. Yeah. So she's someone and I think that, yeah she just embodies. But other than that, I don't have a lot of bigger bodied - here, oh my friend, and then there's just a writer friend. That's from Evanston. Who's also a sort of super fancy famous writer. Now, Sam Irby, who wrote - she's a blog writer, but she wrote, "We Are Never Meeting in Real Life." She's a New York Times bestselling writer. She's like a fancy writer and she self-identifies as fat and she's, she's brilliant. And I love her and she's a television writer now and I love her. And I've done storytelling with her and she's glorious and she's someone that I really look up to. But acting-wise, it's gotta be Kirs.
Claire: That's amazing.
Jen: Yeah!
Claire: Definitely. I hope to be able to talk to her at some point, depending on how she identifies in that way. Yeah, I, yeah. I love those, those are great. If you could design your, it can be I would say dream role. What would it be?
Jen: I think it would be, my dream role, seriously, is where they say, "Don't worry about memorization". Because I get so nervous about that. So it's an improv situation.
Claire: OK, perfect.
Jen: You show up on set. You're working with brilliant, lovely, nice people on a comedy, and you're playing a heightened, more hilarious version of yourself. That's a, that's be my dream role. And I could just play with other actors and we could come up with something. So it would be very ensemble-based improv.
Claire: So Jen Bosworth-Ramirez playing Jen Bosworth- Ramirez.
Jen: But better. Meaning the heightened, fierce version of myself that I wish I could be in real life. And without fear. That, or the fear doesn't stop you, or the fear or the trauma doesn't stop you. So that would be my dream role. That would be so much fun.
Claire: This episode's call to action is an organization that is near and dear to Jen's heart. It is the Latino Union of Chicago, which collaborates with low-income immigrant and US-born workers to develop the tools necessary to collectively improve social and economic conditions. Women temporary workers founded Latino Union of Chicago in 2002, improve working conditions in temporary employment agencies and in the communities where they lived and worked.
Latino Union has also focused on corner day-laborers, low income immigrant workers who seek temporary employment on public street corners in the home construction and landscaping industries. Their website is latinounion.org.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Big Bones, Thick Skin. Many things to my dear friend, Jen Bosworth-Ramirez for sharing herself and her stories. Her website again is undeniablewriters.com. Big thanks also to the wonderful Eric Backus for our amazing music, Meredith Montgomery for the incredible BBTS artwork and Amilia Driscoll with Summit Podcasting for her incredible help with editing. Help us out and subscribe for more honest, thought-provoking, and occasionally funny conversations with me and my guests.
And thanks for listening to Big Bones, Thick Skin.